Comments on: Justin Brierley and the Folly of Christianity https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/19743 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Thu, 23 May 2024 22:18:50 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/19743#comment-34660 Thu, 23 Jun 2022 21:40:50 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=19743#comment-34660 In reply to Adam.

They are all bad. Some are just worse.

See What’s the Harm? Why Religious Belief Is Always Bad.

Meanwhile, the Bible contains not a word for the abolition of slavery. That was actually against the Bible’s teachings, which are uniformly pro-slavery, Old Testament and New. Hence, again, when we abandoned the Bible (by abandoning the slavery it commanded us to engage in), society improved. Q.E.D.

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By: Adam https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/19743#comment-34649 Wed, 22 Jun 2022 06:45:02 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=19743#comment-34649 In reply to Richard Carrier.

Are there not many different Christian worldviews? If so, which ones are bad? You said ‘In every case throughout history and the world, society improved only when it abandoned the Bible as any kind of guide for how to organize and govern it.’
But this must exclude the abolition of slavery?

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/19743#comment-34578 Fri, 03 Jun 2022 23:27:04 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=19743#comment-34578 In reply to PoliteDissenter.

My point, take note, was that this is a false analogy. Because atheism is not a worldview. It’s a position on one specific thing. So you can’t compare “Christianity” with “atheism.” You have to compare it with specific atheist worldviews. That’s why you can’t say “atheism causes wars” because that’s falsified by countless atheist worldviews that didn’t. So obviously it doesn’t.

A correct analogy would be to compare “atheism” with “theism,” where now you have deists and pagans and Hindus and whatnot in the mix. But that would show why we can’t say things like “theism caused human rights,” because there are too many theisms that didn’t, so it obviously doesn’t have that causal effect. The claim has been as scientifically falsified as can ever be.

Likewise atheism.

Hence I concluded that false worldviews can produce evils regardless of whether they are theistic or atheistic. Thus, pointing to an atheistic false worldview causing evils does not defend Christianity from the same observation. That’s a non sequitur. If you want to compare Christianity with something, it needs to be a credibly true worldview—like Secular Humanism. QED.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/19743#comment-34577 Fri, 03 Jun 2022 23:21:29 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=19743#comment-34577 In reply to Bogumił Wysmoliński.

There is no one-stop-shop for that.

For the basics of ancient Jewish history, you can start with The Bible Unearthed. But if you want to get into the nuts and bolts of the evolution of specific beliefs within Judaism, like resurrection (Unearthed does not cover that, or any specifics of ideology beyond monotheism), then you have to find works that address that specific thing. Like Alan Segal’s Life After Death: A History of the Afterlife in Western Religion. That covers the development of resurrection ideology from Zoroastrianism into Judaism, although only in gist.

But if you want to focus on some other specific belief (the evolution of the idea of Satan and cosmic Dualism; the evolution of linear apocalypticism; or what have you), then you have to find works on that specific history (whatever idea whose history you want to explore). Although some leading works that find Zoroastrianism as a principal influence on Judaism in various ways I cite in Not the Impossible Faith (see pp. 90-99).

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/19743#comment-34571 Fri, 03 Jun 2022 22:11:40 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=19743#comment-34571 In reply to kennedyvandemore.

That’s a good example, I suspect, of that very point. Similar examples can be found, I think, in the history of every science (including history itself as a field).

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By: kennedyvandemore https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/19743#comment-34559 Wed, 01 Jun 2022 13:21:10 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=19743#comment-34559 Great post and analysis, Dr. Carrier–way to finish off the series. Your central argument about the incompatibility of Christianity’s holy text with science and logic is quite similar to one of the main arguments found in a dissertation I read recently titled, “Moral Man, Immoral Economy: Protestant Reflections on Market Capitalism, 1820-1860,” written by Stewart Davenport. Davenport, a professor of History at Pepperdine University with a B.A. degree in History from Princeton University and a Ph.D. in History from Yale, fantastically demonstrated the juxtaposition of the beliefs held by the purveyors of the new science of political economy during this time. These men–five of which he covers/highlights in the reading as being especially important to this new science–were all ordained ministers (except for one who was just a “Presbyterian layman”), whose religious beliefs were foundational to their worldview, and thus their view of political economics. They also all held positions of great power and influence during their time and essentially laid the groundwork for how we study economics today and thus how those learned practices are carried out. For example, Francis Wayland, one of the men Dr. Davenport covers, was President at Brown University and taught the first political economy class there. What’s striking is that all these men relied heavily–almost entirely–on the work of Adam Smith’s “Wealth of Nations” to form the basis of their teachings in this new field of science; yet, as Dr. Davenport emphasizes, Smith’s work was explaining how economically successful societies achieve this status by following the natural order of things (i.e. the stages of hunter/gatherer, shepherd, feudal, and finally commercial), and how this system was, at best, and in Davenport’s words, “agnostic”, and did not require any divine being in order for it to be carried out. This created quite the cognitive dissonance in the minds of these men; they had greatly admired the work of Smith, whose theories were actually grounded in reasoning and scientific observations, but that made it that much harder for them to justify imposing their unreasonable Christian beliefs onto said theories. That didn’t stop them from doing so of course, and they instead conformed Smith’s science to fit their religious beliefs, and vice versa, ultimately making his work unscientific. If we consider the economic state of our country today, unless you happen to be a part of the “opulent minority” (a term coined by James Madison in the Federalist papers, a class of people whom of which, as he put it, had to be protected from the “majority”, aka the working class in today’s terms), it’s obvious that the “science” these men championed is far from any real, effective science as theorized by Smith, and it’s strictly because their Christian beliefs were forcefully woven into it. Anyways, I know this is somewhat off topic, but I think it’s a great example that only further proves your own argument of just how incompatible Christian doctrine is with evidence-based solutions and how, when taken into consideration and applied to these solutions, it only makes things far worse.

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By: Bogumił Wysmoliński https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/19743#comment-34549 Tue, 24 May 2022 10:13:54 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=19743#comment-34549 Hi. I have a unrelated question. Could you recommend any reliable book about ancient Jews history? Their pre-persian timeline is kinda foggy to me. Preferably one discussing Zoroastrian influences on their religion. You mentioned it at least few times and I’d like to learn more. (Would you one day write one I’d buy it. ;))

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By: PoliteDissenter https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/19743#comment-34548 Tue, 24 May 2022 02:13:54 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=19743#comment-34548 I think you gave short shrift to the argument about the evils committed by atheist governments. The point isn’t that today’s atheists are Stalinists (obviously you’re not). It’s that they can’t have it both ways with the historical record.

When atheists point out the harms caused by institutionalized religion — holy wars, inquisitions, crusades, authoritarianism, intolerance — Christians answer that they’re not advocating for that kind of Christianity. Theirs, they say, is a modernized, enlightened, and (yes) humanistic faith. If you don’t allow them that defense (“our Christianity is different”), then you can’t use it yourself on the atheism side (“our secularism is different”).

Of course your philosophy is different. But that doesn’t change the fact that some atheist regimes, Stalin’s among them, were just as bloody and intolerant and unfree as the worst examples on the religious side of the ledger. You should at least explain why those cases from history shouldn’t affect our evaluation of atheism, and yet the evils of organized religion should continue to discredit Christianity as a worldview, if that’s really your position.

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