Comments on: That Phenomenally Stupid Article by Bill Cooke https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/30263 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Fri, 06 Sep 2024 13:16:03 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.7.1 By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/30263#comment-38910 Fri, 06 Sep 2024 13:16:03 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=30263#comment-38910 In reply to James Kennedy.

Wow. And which shows he knows my 2014 study exists—yet still didn’t cite or quote or reference it or address its contents! And this is in 2020—yet he still doesn’t cite or quote or reference even Lataster’s peer-reviewed study of 2019! And, of course, nothing in that article is even relevant to either (it’s mostly about the bogus conspiracy theory charge which I dispel in OHJ, index, “conspiracy theories”).

That pretty much dispels any chance of his honesty or competence.

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By: James Kennedy https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/30263#comment-38905 Wed, 04 Sep 2024 19:23:29 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=30263#comment-38905 FYI, there is another short article by Bill Cooke that mentions you:

Cooke, B. (2020). The myth theory of Jesus is rubbish. The Open Society: Official Journal of the New Zealand Association of Rationalists & Humanists (Inc.), 93(1), 17-19.

There is a free copy here:

https://search.informit.org/doi/pdf/10.3316/informit.T2024061700004700244463335

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/30263#comment-38846 Mon, 26 Aug 2024 16:12:16 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=30263#comment-38846 In reply to Bill.

Primarily, because he is famous and biblical studies operates as a prestige economy, not an empirical one.

Secondarily, for the convoluted historically contingent reason that Ehrman popularized biblical studies to the masses, becoming a direct threat to Christian congregations (who are not supposed to know about mainstream biblical studies—exactly as Ehrman himself explains in the introduction to Jesus, Interrupted). In result he became the most recognized “atheist historian of Jesus.”

Since Christians are fond of tu quoque fallacies, they like quote-mining famous atheists who agree with them on something (“See, even Ehrman agrees with us!” which is to be read as “See, even atheist experts agree with us”). This led to a popular practice of quoting Ehrman this way.

He thus became “the most important expert in Jesus studies.” Christians need him to be, so they can keep this fallacy running; and atheists who hate mythicists need him to be, for the same reason (because everyone with a false belief resorts to the same illogical rhetoric, it’s part of the standard toolbox of all human beings who emotionally feel the need to defend something that they actually can’t). And this all stems from him simply being the most recognizable name in the field, who just happens to support Christians on certain things, which they will exploit.

This in turn gave Ehrman power. And since power corrupts, he uses that power to threaten and browbeat anyone who disagrees with him, to the cheers of adoring fans.

Because, circling back to point one, biblical studies is a prestige economy, not an empirical one.

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By: Bill https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/30263#comment-38838 Mon, 26 Aug 2024 05:35:13 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=30263#comment-38838 In reply to Richard Carrier.

Can someone tell me why Ehrman, and not JDC, Burton L. Mack, Shelby Sponge, or Vermes became the “main face” of historicism? Why don’t evangelicals have conferences critiquing any of those other folks, rather than just Ehrman (I know the guy who set up the Ehrman conference in Chicago from a few years back)? I have seen, over the past twelve years that I’ve been doing serious research in this area, Muslims and Evangelicals (when debating Mythicists) quoting Ehrman constantly, but never Vermes, et al. Also, I know this has been covered for over a decade, but has anyone pinned down the reason why Ehrman engages (in his writings and debates) in so much gatekeeping, even going so far as to call Tanakh scholars in his own department “unqualified” to write a book on the New Testament? He seems to think Biblical Studies operates under the parampara system (or the Sith rule of two) where there can only be so many “true” teachers out there.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/30263#comment-38817 Tue, 20 Aug 2024 18:35:35 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=30263#comment-38817 In reply to technicallychief2a068c306a.

Indeed. That argument is contextually ignorant in a number of ways.

I list it as one of the failure modes of historicity in Historicity Big and Small (it’s P11) and addressed it ten years ago when Ehrman ineptly attempted it (see Ehrman on Historicity Recap, §7). I have since demonstrated that in fact dozens of experts conclude the opposite (see The Idea That Some Jews Were Already Expecting a Dying Messiah).

In my original study I provided abundant evidence and cited some of that scholarship too (Ehrman has never read my book; or if he has, he has never published anything about it since; e.g. his book on historicity was published before mine, and so isn’t a response to its contents). For example, I cover the
“revolution cult” phenomenon in the sociological literature (Element 29, Chapter 5); and I cover the Jewish evidence relating to this (Elements 5 and 7, Chapter 4), which has grown since (see links above). Ehrman has since passed a dissertation by a student making my point openly, so it would seem Ehrman has also quietly dropped that argument.

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By: technicallychief2a068c306a https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/30263#comment-38814 Tue, 20 Aug 2024 16:56:01 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=30263#comment-38814 Although not mentioned in the Cooke article, one argument that Dr. Ehrman continually uses is that the Jews expected a triumphant political messiah, not an ignominiously convicted, executed one. This “expectation” argument seems to ask for an answer from sociology/social movements field in the religious beliefs area. If there are historical or current examples in this interdisciplinary part of academics, it would be helpful. You covered a lot of belief switching regarding prophecies in OT such as Isaiah, etc. Perhaps even more general, encompassing evaluation of group thinking in other fields?

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/30263#comment-38800 Mon, 19 Aug 2024 14:15:05 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=30263#comment-38800 In reply to Mark Cagnetta.

Just so readers know, that article is available to subscribers only. But so is Cooke’s article that time. Whatever you wrote in response, he evidently ignored it for his 2024 article. Which looks more deliberate than incompetent.

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By: Mark Cagnetta https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/30263#comment-38793 Sun, 18 Aug 2024 23:55:18 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=30263#comment-38793 In reply to Richard Carrier.

Tom Flynn published my article. It’s available through the Free Inquiry website. “Jesus is a Myth: A Rebuttal to Bill Cooke.” June/July 2017.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/30263#comment-38784 Fri, 16 Aug 2024 19:13:15 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=30263#comment-38784 In reply to leesalis.

Dawkins was sympathetic to mythicism at least at one point, but was never very well informed about it.

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By: leesalis https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/30263#comment-38780 Fri, 16 Aug 2024 18:19:41 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=30263#comment-38780 Richard,

FYI my ministry years were 1972 – 1986. My deconversion was an agonizing process taking place in the early 1990s. Aside from comments on Bill Cooke, what I wrote was written about 2002 – 2003 so as you point out there are numerous points to improve.

Though endorsed by Robert Price I’d be very surprised if Free Inquiry publishes my comments.

Do you know if Richard Dawkins has ever expressed any thoughts on a mythical Jesus?

Thanks for all your work. Best regards, Lee

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