The only thing I can recommend is to read writers who talk informedly about consensual kink, and maybe ask them a specific question or two related to this in their comment threads (you need to be more direct so they know what you are actually asking for). Maybe start with Greta Christina (and through her writing find others). You can look over her articles under kink or S&M and see if any relate to your questions, or broaden your search to sex.

Only until after I finally was able to realize that I was still a theist and then realized that I wasn’t connecting to God or the universe or a collective consciousness, only until after I realized I was connecting to myself, only until after I TRULY became a real atheist instead of a fake atheist for 20 years (what an incredible change, so much completely debilitating guilt, fear, and panic is just GONE now), was I able to realize that I at many points in my life have objectified people without knowing. It was only then that I realized what people even meant by “objectification”.

If I think I’m below everyone and nobody can relate with me because of it, I’ve turned everyone into objects—objects of possible admiration, objects of “I can never be like THAT”, objects of other types, but objects nevertheless. If I think I’m above everyone and nobody can relate with me because of it, it’s pretty obvious that I’ve turned everyone into objects—this is the view that MOST people have of when someone gets turned into an object.

Only when I’m looking at people as equals, as humans, as the human animals that we are, with the patterns we have, with the mindsets we have, with the way we process thoughts and emotions, am I truly looking at people as PEOPLE, as equals, as humans.

Now, I have fetishes, I have things that turn me on—but at the same time, I’ve never looked at someone, IN PERSON, PURELY for my fetishes, but I guess I’ve always assumed that everyone else would only look at me for their fetishes, and after I no longer looked like a prepubescent child (I looked like a kid until I was probably about 27 or 28) I never thought I could ever make the cut, ever, for anyone, at least, nobody that had an opposite mindset of my own at the time (at the time I could have gotten with plenty of very skinny, hairless, very feminine young men that couldn’t arouse me no matter what they could possibly attempt to do, I’ve always went for the rugged, alpha male, masculine, bear/biker/trucker/punk/rocker/skinhead/aggressive-looking guys, I went for the stereotypical hypermasculine male archetype—now it doesn’t matter if someone is hypermasculine or not, they just be to be a decent, caring person who thinks about other people’s feelings, and physically I like beards, bellies and pit stink)

I never thought that I was ABLE to connect with anyone sexually except for fetishized objectivity, I never thought someone could connect with me as a PERSON and be sexual. Knowing what I know now–that I CAN connect with people, that people DO like me, that people DO care about who I am, it changes a lot for me.

I’ve never been into watching people have sex—I like pictures of people, I like to think about how I could satisfy the people in the pictures, there are certain attributes that I really really enjoy in the pictures (the 3 things I mentioned in parenthesis, primarily). There are certain things I think about with those people, their scents, the feeling of their skin, sensuality—but I’m apparently too much of a beta or too submissive or too filled with guilt to actually think about using my dick to DO something to someone. I’ve just never even been able to imagine it. The idea of doing something to someone against their will is one of the biggest turn-offs I can imagine—yet, the idea of someone doing something to me against MY will is somehow a turn-on—but would it really be against my will? Not really. So it’s very confusing for me.

I haven’t had a satisfying, loving encounter with someone for almost 20 years, back when I was in a BDSM relationship with someone who I found out later only liked me because I looked like I was 15 and he knew how to manipulate young minds (I found out recently that he was arrested in 2007 for molesting a 14 year old). Until recently, I had lost faith that it was even possible. And it was my own fault, really. I would have unsuccessful encounters again and again, even with my ex from 2004-2006–unsuccessful situations—I mean, I always satisfied the other person, that wasn’t a problem, that has never been a problem. –But I didn’t realize the deepness in a sexual manner that could be achieved with someone if we truly got to know things about each other, how we think, our quirks, our advantages, what scares us, what makes us smile, the individual beautiful things about being what we are. I somehow thought it would get in the way. I’m not sure why I thought that, but I did. I thought the more they knew about me, the more they would judge my sexuality, or something, the more that they wouldn’t want to have sexual relations with me.

The idea of someone TRULY loving me for my mind and how I think, and in essence, who I am, was just so foreign to me before. I thought, in a relationship, all I was worth was an object, a trophy of sorts.

That last relationship and how it went by 2006…… the worst damage anyone ever did to me was the abusive 3rd person who was brought into the relationship who a couple days after I got him to climax 7 times in the period of an hour, said, after I wanted to give him a hug, “I won’t touch you, it would be like inappropriately touching a small child.”

Enough of that though….

Anyway, I’m at this point now where I’m just confused.

I have fetishes, but I have fears that to even think about the fetishes are objectifying. I have completely lost my sense of what it means to objectify someone sexually. I don’t know if I’ve EVER actually done it (and I actually was sexually SUBJECTIFYING people), or whether I was doing it ALL THE TIME before, or what. I DON’T KNOW! I’m trying to be the best person I can and I seem to be beating myself up over it.

I can’t afford a therapist, so I’m just sticking my neck out, taking a chance, and possibly getting verbally beat down for being a little too personal, or, well, WAY too personal. I seem to be good at that.

Not if you also subjectify them.

In the second case (just thinking about other people), if you also think about what sort of person they are, what thoughts they have, how they might enjoy being with you, and otherwise see them as a full human being like yourself, then you are not objectifying, you are subjectifying. It is objectifying only if you completely ignore their humanity and only regard them as a physical sexual object.

In the first case (ads) just revisit Heldman’s criteria and imagine ads that still use sexual attractiveness but reverses or avoids every one of her criteria. As I say in my article:

[An ad is not objectifying that] represents the whole person, as an actor with a will and desires of their own, [that] does not dehumanize the subject (Heldman criteria 1, 2, 6 and 7) or negate their individuality (criteria 3, 6 and 7) or gratuitously eroticize their lack of consent (criteria 4), or treat them as only a source of sexual gratification (criteria 5 and 6), as if they were not a thinking, complex agent with their own will who can also be, and should also be, a chooser and recipient of sexual gratification, an actual or potential equal partner in deciding and pursuing sexual pleasure (including the most basic sexual pleasure of viewing or enjoying the company of beautiful people without any actual sex expected or occurring).

As a woman, I’m starting to believe that making men understand where woman are coming from regarding these issues is pointless on a grand scale

That progress is slow must not be mistaken for progress not happening or being impossible or working for it being pointless.

A lot of progress has been made when we look at the large scale (e.g. the last fifty years), and real progress is still being made when we look at the small scale (a lot more men are on board with what we are talking about now than were five years ago, and this is true not only within the atheism community but other communities where sexism is finally being talked about and widely debated, with the sexists slowly losing that debate, such as the gaming industry, tech industry, journalism industry, and so on).

So don’t lose heart. It’s unfortunate that we have to have patience in the face of piles of the wrongheaded. But the more we hang in there, the more water we haul, and with every year they gradually lose more and more. I’m on the long game. I’m looking at where we can be in 2063. Or even just 2033. And for that, I just have to look at where we were in 1993 or 1963.

So do take heart. It’s frustrating. But working for change does make change. The next generation might benefit more than we do. But then that’s still why we do it. I would have wanted the last generation to have done it for me.

The heart of the problem is sexism, none of what comes after in the form of atheism+ or anti-atheism+ rhetoric matters. We need to roll it back to the beginning — sexism — which has become nothing more than background noise at this point, in the sense that many people (even women) don’t see it for the destructive, dehumanizing force it is.

It’s as basic as seeing an injured animal on the road and stopping to help it. There are no deep conversations about whether that is right or wrong; it just is. Until men and women see sexual objectification and sexism in these black and white terms, we’re all just wasting breath. How do you come to this knowledge, I don’t know. For me, it’s always been fairly simple to see hurtful, denigrating behavior for what it is, be it toward a woman, a black person, a fat person, a disabled person, etc. It’s not hard. Of course, I have no entitlement I’m trying to hold on to. I have nothing to lose by seeing this behavior for what it is. I lose nothing when I point out sexism, or racism. Perhaps some people feel they are losing the higher ground? I honestly don’t know.

As a woman, I’m starting to believe that making men understand where woman are coming from regarding these issues is pointless on a grand scale; we can only deal with each example of it as it comes up in our daily lives (and, yes, it’s daily). Trying to convince some men (and women) that sexism is real is like trying to convince theists that god is not real. Pointless. We, as atheists, can only assert our rights, speak our beliefs plainly and clearly, extract ourselves and move on. As women, we must do the same. Confront sexism when it arises, everywhere it arises, demand our rights, but don’t expect understanding. If we teach our daughters and sons about it, hopefully the next generation will be better and so on.

I don’t want to end this post without mentioning that sexism applies to men as well, when, as young boys they are told to shut down their emotions, etc. We need to start when children are young, not ‘manning up’ boys and not belittling girls. Not making boys believe ‘conquering’ is the only way to true manliness, etc.

What makes this process so hard is the knee-jerk response men feel toward woman who dare bring the issues to light… when, if these same men, had their rights abused in the same way a woman does, would be just as outraged.

I feel it’s a losing battle. As one man said to me ‘why should I give up my privileged existence?’ I don’t know, Sir, perhaps because your privileged existence denigrates half the population of the world including your own family members (Mother, Sister, Daughter, GF) I don’t feel the need to bother trying anymore… I do what I’ve always done, when confronted with sexism I call it for what it is and if I’m then subjected to vitriol, I forget that and continue on my path which is to educate young girls and boys about how sexism is wrong, and to stand up for myself when I encounter it and most importantly, to distance myself from men (and women) who pertpetrate it.

I’ve rather given up on this generation who far too often resort to the lowest of the low by suggesting I give them a blow job or that I’m frigid, when I discuss sexism. For the most part, this generation, has proven they are beyond helping. Let’s concentrate on very young men and women and stop the ranting blogs, online commenting wars and hate-filled youtube videos. They are pointless. I’ve often lamented the idea that atheists can also be sexist. Somehow, I felt that enlightenment would automatically extend to sexism. I was wrong and it hurt for a while to realize that women, again, have a battle to fight even with the most enlightened of people. It is what it is, all I can do is keep speaking truth and hope for the best.

One other suggestion I have for helping the cause of equal rights for women, is to dissociate with any men or woman who is sexist. I fear that will leave quite the lonely world with woman (who only want to be respected) on one side (and men and women) who, for some inexplicable reason, can’t see the problem on the other. But better that than accepting my lot in life and helping sexism continue. If we, as women, remove ourselves from the equation in a very real way, sexism would lose it’s power. Hatred, denigration and the need to possess women wouldn’t mean much if the bars were filled only with men, if women withdrew completely from men. Perhaps loss of a precious commodity might change minds? I fear women would be afraid to be so drastic in their response, as women long for families, love, children… but it’s simply time to get drastic. Atheism+ has shown me, sadly, that sexism is alive and well and so deeply rooted that ‘debating’ it is pointless. Actions speak louder than words.

For instance, years ago, a friend brought her BF along to the bar to meet all of us; within minutes, and right in front of his GF he cupped my backside and slid his fingers between my legs. I told him what I thought of him, in no uncertain terms and then never spoke another word to him again. Not a hello or a goodbye even though I frequented the same bar as he did for years afterwards. I completely eradicated him from my life. I’ve had to do this many times with men who considered me an object. If ALL woman did this, I think it would force change. Playing nice with someone who has abused you in any way, helps no one. It doesn’t help you or help him see that he was not correct in considering you an object. I never found drawing these lines hard, sadly, some women do. Draw the hard lines, stand your ground with action, not words. Words are wasted most times. Do you think a slave in 1860 could have reasoned with his owner? Not likely, but unlike slaves, we in the USA, at least, are free to disassociate with men who objectify us. If this happens in the work place then the fight gets more difficult but you can still fight. We can fight and should, with more than blogs. With actions.

Although I have a hard time trying to understand what you’re saying here, your summary is nonsensical. To call evolution “trail and error of conscious” (sic) is rediculous, since evolution is neither trial and error nor has a conscious. And humans’ trial and erroring when deliberatly searching for a solution is still part of deliberatly searching for a solution. Evolution is not deliberate, there is no conscious. If you don’t understand that, perhaps you should first try to understand it.

Angry? The Darla article is funny, not angry.

I’m starting to think you are off your rocker.

Why so angry,again in your Darla article, I was angry at the inevitable result of our our existance as well ..ie..death, and yes this lower nature and the nature that we can see is a machine, the core generator is not the operation is.

So we have this suffering on this level, because of man not putting existance in proper perspective, don’t totally blame nature(In response again to Darla The She-Goat.

Now that is what I call an a sleepy consciousness, if one looks at nature, look at the hominid.
nature created many different hominids, and sometimes two or three or who knows right now
many at a time.Ultimately homo sapien sapien is the end result, and we do believe that we(homo sapien) are the last and most fit,at this time to survive.

So this thing called evolution I think is the trial and error of conscious, that man mirrors the consciousness of himself, as we are as far as we know, the highest conscious, on this earth able to mimick nature, with let me change sleepy conscious with trial and error consciouness.
So in summary, if nature has no consciousness than neither does man.