Comments on: Historicity of Jesus: Live Q&A https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/6717 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Mon, 11 Apr 2016 03:03:35 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.7.2 By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/6717#comment-16823 Mon, 11 Apr 2016 03:03:35 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=6717#comment-16823 In reply to lsamaknight.

In the Gospels, it’s not conflation, but deliberate emulation. For example, it’s already in mainstream literature that Mark appears to have modeled the crucifixion narrative on the story of Jesus ben Ananias who died in the 60s during the siege of Jerusalem. (I discuss this and cite the literature in OHJ.)

And many sayings of Jesus actually originated as sayings of apostles, like Paul. They were then simply repackaged and rewritten as sayings of Jesus.

I have not seen any evidence of accidental conflation. When things get “layered on” to Jesus, it always looks deliberate.

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By: lreadl https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/6717#comment-16822 Mon, 02 Mar 2015 21:31:46 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=6717#comment-16822 How can you question the historicity of Jesus? Here’s his house, for Christ’s sake. http://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/first-century-house-found-nazareth-did-jesus-live-there-n315871

LOL

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By: Steve Estes https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/6717#comment-16821 Sun, 22 Feb 2015 15:58:12 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=6717#comment-16821 In what chapter does the Ascension of Isaiah mention a death and resurrection of Jesus in a lower heaven? I just finished reading the Ascension of Isaiah and was not able to find a death and resurrection.

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By: Lage von Dissen https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/6717#comment-16820 Wed, 04 Feb 2015 22:57:29 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=6717#comment-16820 I was wondering if anyone has specifically spelled out the scriptural references that support each attribute of Jesus in the Rank-Raglan hero class. Most of them I’ve found myself, but there are a few from OHJ that I’m less sure about. That is, which verses support each attribute supposed, and a brief explanation of how or why the verses support each particular attribute. This is one of the objections raised from the opposition, that several of these criteria are either not met or are a stretch at best. Having this info would thus be an excellent reference or reply to such objections. I greatly enjoyed both PH and OHJ, and appreciate the thorough analyses within both. Nice job Richard! ‘Tis a subject I’ve had great interest in for years now, and I’m looking forward to your next book! Cheers.

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By: Casey Cho https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/6717#comment-16819 Mon, 26 Jan 2015 04:15:20 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=6717#comment-16819 Dr. Carrier,

Did you ever address the problem of why Luke goes out of the way to ensure and explain that Jesus was born in Bethlehem even while stating Joseph was an inhabitant of Nazareth? Wouldn’t it have been easier just to say Jesus was a native of Bethlehem if Jesus was initially only a spiritual/heavenly figure who only gradually gained the attributes of an individual in history?

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By: grung0r https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/6717#comment-16818 Sun, 25 Jan 2015 14:48:52 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=6717#comment-16818 If Paul believed that Jesus was crucified in the celestial realm, why is he never even slightly explicit about that fact? I know he mentions “third heaven”(although not directly relating to Jesus), but apart from that it would seem that he is just as silent on the multiple layers of heaven and the heavenly crucifixion as he is on placing Jesus in real history. Is this concept just so central to his worldview that it doesn’t bear mentioning?

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By: L.C. Crompton https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/6717#comment-16817 Sun, 25 Jan 2015 02:06:49 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=6717#comment-16817 Just finished reading On the Historicity of Jesus. Question about the pesherim genre: you mention a few that are relevant to the currently canonical bible; do we have many still extant? Do we have any clues as to how seriously the Jews took these pesherim? I’m curious because the pesherim sound a lot like one of the flavors of “bible study” in the sect I grew up in: using the bible to interpret other parts of the bible. (But any unorthodox interpretations were heavily frowned upon, so these interpretations almost never actually gave any “understanding” into other obscure passages.)

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By: stevenjohnson2 https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/6717#comment-16815 Fri, 23 Jan 2015 22:00:18 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=6717#comment-16815 Question #1 Given the tendentiousness of Luke, is it feasible to read the martyrdom of Stephen as modeled on the Passion?

Question #2 Or can Luke be considered reliable enough to have preserved a real even in his story of Stephen’s martyrdom…implying the possibility memories of Stephen provided a model for the Passion story?

Question #3 As I understand it “Stephen” means “crown,” especially one for a victor. Yet, given the prominence of Stephen the crown, James and John the pillars and Peter the rock, which collectively an image of a doorway into the celestial temple [sorry, no, not a DS9 shout out] recalling Hebrews, can Stephen be read as a tradition of Jesus by another name, prior to elevation to the Godhead? In other words, Stephen’s martyrdom and the Passion are yet another doublet?

Question #4 Doesn’t the presence of “Herod” as well as Pontius Pilate imply that the first followers of the Way did not know who crucified Jesus, rendering all theories of origins of Christianity in a resurrection experience absurdities?

Question # 5 Or does the presence of Herod simply imply a syncretic effort to identify “Jesus” with John the Baptist?

Question #6 In general, do some of the refractory elements in the gospels, the ones that can’t be traced to scriptural precedents claimed as history, fit an effort to identify the Jesus who is expected to return with every serious claimant as political messiah in recent memory? (Not just John the Baptist, but Judas the Galilean, and even the Egyptian?)

Question #7 Can Paul’s marks be interpreted as tattoos, rather than crucifixion stigmata, which imply an Egyptian influence?

Question #8 Is it probable that an essential use of the early Gospels was in public readings to a largely illiterate audience?

Question #9 If so, then is it likely the abrupt ending of Mark introduced purely oral esoteric teaching, as revealed by Jesus to the naked young man? (Who was presumably to be identified with the reader/author of a suitable age for a first advent in Pilate’s era)

Question #10 Is the beloved disciple story possibly incorporated as bona fides, so to speak, for esoteric teaching by a man claiming to be the beloved disciple. after similar public reading of that Gospel?

Question #11 Is the rather abrupt end of Acts, which is very unlikely to have been written before Paul’s ultimate fate was determined, suggestive that no one really knew what happened to him? (As might be expected if Paul bribed his judges, then fled..or absconded. Or if he simply recanted.)

Question #12 Is it possible that the Simon Magus character was a fictional scapegoat for sayings or actions attributed to Simon Peter by hostile critics within the broader movement?

Question #13 Is it possible that the Gospel of Thomas (or Q if it existed) Is more or less the equivalent of an anthology of anecdotes designed for amateur speakers, with no sectarian commitment?

Question #14 Is it possible that Revelations is a revised non-Christian apocalypse adapted for polemic use by the addition of the seven churches material?

Question #15 Can the focus on the Temple attributed to Jesus reflect traditions of an historical person in the now lost (and likely misrepresented) Sadducee tradition, or is it more likely an expression of messianic movements after the Jewish War or leading to Bar Kokhba’s revolt?

I hope that you get a chance to see these, as I think they are interesting questions.

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By: stevenjohnson2 https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/6717#comment-16814 Fri, 23 Jan 2015 21:55:56 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=6717#comment-16814 Question #1 Given the tendentiousness of Luke, is it feasible to read the martyrdom of Stephen as modeled on the Passion?

Question #2 Or can Luke be considered reliable enough to have preserved a real even in his story of Stephen’s martyrdom…implying the possibility memories of Stephen provided a model for the Passion story?

Question #3 As I understand it “Stephen” means “crown,” especially one for a victor. Yet, given the prominence of Stephen the crown, James and John the pillars and Peter the rock, which collectively an image of a doorway into the celestial temple [sorry, no, not a DS9 shout out] recalling Hebrews, can Stephen be read as a tradition of Jesus by another name, prior to elevation to the Godhead? In other words, Stephen’s martyrdom and the Passion are yet another doublet?

Question #4 Doesn’t the presence of “Herod” as well as Pontius Pilate imply that the first followers of the Way did not know who crucified Jesus, rendering all theories of origins of Christianity in a resurrection experience absurdities?

Question # 5 Or does the presence of Herod simply imply a syncretic effort to identify “Jesus” with John the Baptist?

Question #6 In general, do some of the refractory elements in the gospels, the ones that can’t be traced to scriptural precedents claimed as history, fit an effort to identify the Jesus who is expected to return with every serious claimant as political messiah in recent memory? (Not just John the Baptist, but Judas the Galilean, and even the Egyptian?)

Question #7 Can Paul’s marks be interpreted as tattoos, rather than crucifixion stigmata, which imply an Egyptian influence?

Question #8 Is it probable that an essential use of the early Gospels was in public readings to a largely illiterate audience?

Question #9 If so, then is it likely the abrupt ending of Mark introduced purely oral esoteric teaching, as revealed by Jesus to the naked young man? (Who was presumably to be identified with the reader/author of a suitable age for a first advent in Pilate’s era)

Question #10 Is the beloved disciple story possibly incorporated as bona fides, so to speak, for esoteric teaching by a man claiming to be the beloved disciple. after similar public reading of that Gospel?

Question #11 Is the rather abrupt end of Acts, which is very unlikely to have been written before Paul’s ultimate fate was determined, suggestive that no one really knew what happened to him? (As might be expected if Paul bribed his judges, then fled..or absconded. Or if he simply recanted.)

Question #12 Is it possible that the Simon Magus character was a fictional scapegoat for sayings or actions attributed to Simon Peter by hostile critics within the broader movement?

Question #13 Is it possible that the Gospel of Thomas (or Q if it existed) Is more or less the equivalent of an anthology of anecdotes designed for amateur speakers, with no sectarian commitment?

Question #14 Is it possible that Revelations is a revised non-Christian apocalypse adapted for polemic use by the addition of the seven churches material?

Question #15 Can the focus on the Temple attributed to Jesus reflect traditions of an historical person in the now lost (and likely misrepresented) Sadducee tradition, or is it more likely an expression of messianic movements after the Jewish War and/or leading to Bar Kokhba’s revolt?

I hope that you get a chance to see these, as I think they are interesting questions.

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By: Hoosier X https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/6717#comment-16813 Fri, 23 Jan 2015 16:49:31 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=6717#comment-16813 Has Bayes’s Theorem ever been applied to other historical questions? Such as who killed the princes in the Tower (Edward V and his brother)? Or the Shakespeare Authorship Question?

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