Wednesday (23 May 2018) at 2:30pm Pacific, I’ll be having a cordial online debate on the historicity of Jesus with eminent scholar Dennis MacDonald on Pinecreek Doug’s YouTube Channel (where around that time the feed should appear, so save that link). Doug’s a great host. And Dennis is a genial guy. And knows his stuff.
Indeed, MacDonald tends to get maligned by the same people who go after me, because he famously (and competently) argues more of the Gospels are myth than most folks find tolerable. He is famed for developing and arguing the thesis that much of the Gospels are emulating and transvaluing Greek mythography (especially Homer). And that’s blasphemy.
For example, in Daniel Gullotta’s critique of my book in a recent journal article, you’ll notice Gullotta slags MacDonald off in his attempt to taint me by association, falsely implying I base my rejection of the Gospels as evidence on MacDonald’s work, “ergo” my conclusion should be rejected…when in fact I barely devote more than a paragraph to MacDonald’s thesis in On the Historicity of Jesus, in a chapter on the Gospels that’s over a hundred pages long; and never depend on it. Gullotta, of course, also (conveniently) fails to mention that MacDonald has actually responded to every argument Gullotta deploys against him (so you won’t learn where, or what his responses were, in Gullotta’s piece, which is kind of an underhanded way to make arguments in a journal).
So MacDonald knows my pain. He gets treated the same way sometimes. He nevertheless is still certain Jesus existed. And he has heard and read my thesis (he has attended at least one of my presentations on it, and has definitely seen the content of On the Historicity of Jesus). I’ve addressed his published arguments for historicity before. Which he went out of his way to make, because he often gets accused of being a mythicist (and many remain baffled he isn’t), owing to his rejecting so much of the Gospels explicitly as myth. The advantage here is that he isn’t a Christian apologist. So like my debate with atheist professor of the New Testament Zeba Crook, this debate may be pretty valuable to watch. We are probably going to be discussing actual evidence, like scholars who actually care about the truth, and not Defending the Bible Against Heathen Detractors, or facing a dishonest institutional juggernaut. So tune in!
Note that some time at the end will also be left for audience questions—to be selected by Pinecreek Doug, presumably from observing posted comments, or if some other method will be used, that will be explained.
Awesome. I’ll try to tune in and listen if I can. I’m a skeptic of Jesus’s existence but wouldn’t consider myself a mythicist…..yet lol.
Wednesday is 23rd May 2018. You’d me scared that I missed it. Look fwd to watching !
Yes! So sorry. Typo. It’s supposed to say 23rd. Fixed.
Hi Richard. The date you mention is Wednesday, 22 May, 2018 but assuming it should be Wednesday 23 May, 2018
Yes! So sorry. Typo. It’s supposed to say 23rd. Fixed.
The fragments that PineCreek have left up are interesting and suggestive. If that was all we had would we know what you two were on about sufficient to not have a blazing row about it? 🙂 Looking forward to ver.2.00.
Grant that “The Logoi of Jesus” isn’t a figment of the imagination, when Papias writes this up he admits to getting it second or third hand, and we can see now (as MacDonald says himself) it’s attribution is legendary. The material still goes Pfft! for the same reasons the Gospels themselves go Pfft! I think.
Christianity has a wonderful, coherent, ethic never before expressed – never before expressed in Judaism yet? That is what he, Dennis, was arguing, the audio wasn’t breaking up that badly. The mind boggles.
We’ll definitely do a 2.0! It’s in the planning.
I’m skeptical of the “never before” argument though. There isn’t anything in Christianity that isn’t somewhere already around it (Qumran, other fringe sects of Jews like the Therapeutae and the Essenes, the Hillelites, even some mainstream Prophets; and in adjacent cultures: Cynic philosophy and Egyptian wisdom texts, etc.). And some of the most radical teachings, mainstream scholars agree are post-War and can’t come from Jesus (e.g. the Sermon on the Mount). MacDonald must surely be bucking against the latest conclusions in the field on that, e.g. see my quotations and citations of Dale Allison’s work on the Sermon in OHJ. I aim to bring this up next time.
Dr. Carrier, could there be a transcript of the debate for sale? I am hearing-impaired.
It might be difficult because the connection failed a lot resulting in broken and unclear communications.
I’ll put a call out to have a transcript made though (of this and the next one). I think Reality Revolutions would be interested in making one. I’ll ask.