In aid and honor of my one-month online Critical Thinking Course that starts this weekend (Register Now!), I want to introduce you to a rhetorical (or indeed psychological) tactic that is found everywhere but you probably didn’t know someone had a name for it. I only just found out myself. And discovering its analysis was revealing and rewarding. So I thought it was important to share that discovery with you.
Critical Thinking is about but isn’t just about identifying cognitive biases and logical fallacies so you can expose or avoid them. Likewise learning how to reliably interpret and fact-check claims—from learning how to triage the reliability for sources of information to learning what facts to check and how, and of course learning to read between the lines and catch misleading ambiguities in what you’re being told, while still also reading arguments charitably, and other reading comprehension skills. It’s not just all that. It’s also about learning to spot and avoid pernicious tactics of reasoning or arguing. One of which is called ‘the motte and bailey’.
You’ve probably heard of “whack-a-mole” apologetics. Where they argue Point 1, and you refute it, so they move to Point 2, and you refute that, at which point they jump back to Point 1 as if you hadn’t just refuted it already, and then on and on, back and forth endlessly, never getting anywhere. But this is a variant of a broader tactic, the motte-and-bailey, that is actually more common, used by activists, enthusiasts, and ideologues of all varieties, not just in defense of religion, but in defense of just about any social or political position you can think of, from the left, right, and center.
Defining the Motte-and-Bailey
The best article I’ve yet found on this is by Scott Alexander, All in All Another Brick in the Motte, at his blog The Slate Star Codex. He explains the idea first named or described by Nicholas Shackel, in another quite valuable paper for building your Critical Thinking skills, The Vacuity of Postmodernist Methodology. Who then added his own valuable commentary on Alexander’s summary in Motte and Bailey Doctrines. Any extremist might use it, from liberal fascists or hardline feminists to centrist racists or conservartive sexists. But even moderates can use it. Whether on the right or the left or in between, whether quacks or cranks or sincere proponents of this or that, you’ve probably tangled with someone deploying this tactic, at some point or other.
I recommend reading Alexander’s whole article. But the basic idea he sets forth thus:
[A motte-and-bailey is] a form of medieval castle, where there would be a field of desirable and economically productive land called a bailey, and a big ugly tower in the middle called the motte. If you were a medieval lord, you would do most of your economic activity in the bailey and get rich. If an enemy approached, you would retreat to the motte and rain down arrows on the enemy until they gave up and went away. Then you would go back to the bailey, which is the place you wanted to be all along.
So the motte-and-bailey doctrine is when you make a bold, controversial statement. Then when somebody challenges you, you claim you were just making an obvious, uncontroversial statement, so you are clearly right and they are silly for challenging you. Then when the argument is over you go back to making the bold, controversial statement.
The analogy to argument is thus: the motte is a strong position, easily defended, impossible to argue with; the bailey, however, is a perverted or highly expanded version of that, which is much weaker or harder to defend, quite easy to argue with—even if nevertheless true; though often it’s not. One can falsely equate the two, as if they were the same thing, and thus try to extend the respectability of the “motte” position to the less defensible “bailey” position, and thus pretend (to others or even to yourself) that you’ve defended the bailey when in fact all you did was give it up and retreat to the motte.
Motte-and-Bailey Theism
Alexander gives a few real-world examples. One of my favorite:
“If you don’t accept Jesus, you will burn in Hell forever.” (bailey) But isn’t that horrible and inhuman? “Well, Hell is just another word for being without God, and if you choose to be without God, God will be nice and let you make that choice.” (motte) Oh, well that doesn’t sound so bad, I’m going to keep rejecting Jesus. “But if you reject Jesus, you will BURN in HELL FOREVER and your body will be GNAWED BY WORMS.” But didn’t you just… “Metaphorical worms of godlessness!”
And thus you can never nail them down. Is Hell actually bad and therefore unjust? Or really not all that bad? This is the whack-a-mole characteristic, in motte-and-bailey format. You prove the inescapable immorality of any doctrine of hell (thus capturing the fertile bailey they desperately need to profit from), and they will retreat to some nicer position that allows them to escape the justified accusation of being horrific monsters (retreating to the motte); but as soon as you are assuaged, they will turn around and go back to defending that horrifically immoral hell idea (retaking the bailey).
Alexander also gives another common example:
The religious group that acts for all the world like God is a supernatural creator who builds universes, creates people out of other people’s ribs, parts seas, and heals the sick when asked very nicely (bailey). Then when atheists come around and say maybe there’s no God, the religious group objects, “But God is just another name for the beauty and order in the Universe! You’re not denying that there’s beauty and order in the Universe, are you?” (motte). Then when the atheists go away they get back to making people out of other people’s ribs and stuff.
Anyone experienced arguing with Christians could probably stack up a dozen more examples if they tried. I’ll give one myself below.
Motte-and-Bailey Feminism
Alexander then offers a more controversial but still apt example:
The feminists who constantly argue about whether you can be a real feminist or not without believing in X, Y and Z and wanting to empower women in some very specific way, and who demand everybody support controversial policies like affirmative action or affirmative consent laws (bailey). Then when someone says they [on that account] don’t really like feminism very much, they object “But feminism is just the belief that women are people!” (motte) Then once the person hastily retreats and promises he definitely didn’t mean women aren’t people, the feminists get back to demanding everyone support affirmative action because feminism, or arguing about whether you can be a feminist and wear lipstick.
He’s right, of course. Feminists do this all the time.
“You can’t be a real feminist unless you agree trans-women aren’t women” (Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminists) or “You can’t be a real feminist unless you agree trans-women are women” (Trans-Inclusive Radical Feminists). Neither is exactly right. Just retreating to “feminism just means believing women are people” doesn’t actually resolve the debate between TERFs and TIRFs. That debate has to be resolved on other facts and principles, some of which may be quite complicated—and even when reasonably certain always retain some nonzero probability of being false—and thus are far harder to grasp the truth or consequences of. There may be a right answer here. But it can’t be found in the motte.
Alexander gives his own examples of this, one being those feminists (and there are some) who claim women who dress in a traditionally feminine way (like “wearing lipstick”) are enablers of sexism or not real feminists (and I’ve personally seen some feminists go after several women in just this way). But that is not a logically entailed property of “believing women are people,” and therefore it is not validly possible to defend the anti-makeup bailey-feminism by retreating to the motte-feminism of merely “believing women are people.”
Indeed one can sooner argue that being anti-femininity like this is being anti-feminist, as it actually amounts to criticizing women for being themselves, trying to dictate to them how to use their bodies, rather than letting them make their own decisions about their own bodies—in other words, rather than treating them like people. The same can be said of those feminists who say other feminists defending the full legalization of sex-work (“rights, not rescue”) aren’t really feminists: it’s again sooner the other way around—if, after all, “her body, her choice” is a legitimate synonym of “women are people.” And if it’s not, what of any use then does “women are people” mean?
The other example Alexander gives is “affirmative action,” which is often a motte-and-bailey all by itself (“Quotas!” “But wait, quotas have negative consequences even to those benefitting from them…” “Oh we didn’t mean quotas, we meant making a special effort to recruit minority applicants…” And so around it goes).
There are legitimate debates to be had about what kind of affirmative action is actually good policy, and where and when and how to implement any form of it. Simply labeling anyone an “anti-feminist” who is wary of the concept precisely because it is a minefield of potentially bad policies, because “feminism means believing women are people,” is not a logically valid maneuver. You would either have to prove these were logically synonymous (“there is no possible world in which women are people and any form of affirmative action is unjust,” which I seriously doubt anyone can demonstrate); or that the only way someone can reject a given affirmative action policy is if they reject the premise “women are people”—and the fact is, that’s rarely the case. They might reject it for bad or false reasons, but those are almost always reasons having to do with entirely different premises than that. Since it simply isn’t the case that most opponents of affirmative action are so because they reject the premise that women are people, it cannot be the case that one must accept any form of affirmative action in order to legitimately be a feminist. If you can be wrong about things and still be a feminist, so can they. And surely you aren’t claiming you are never wrong about anything?
One will usually have a better argument to the conclusion that some self-identified feminist is a fraud if you can catch them lying about something significant or peddling disinformation, or that person pushes ideas that logically contradict the premise that women should be treated like people—after all, “her body, her choice” had better mean something, or else it means nothing. Which argument might then hopefully pull the debate back to what “women are people” even means as a phrase—which is precisely what people should be debating, else it devolve into a meaningless slogan, and the word “feminism” with it.
More importantly for the context of activism, trying to defend a bailey feminism by assuming anyone who criticizes it is attacking motte feminism is massively unproductive—in fact, it’s self-defeating, even for the bailey feminist. The tactic only hardens anti-feminists and increases their numbers, precisely the opposite effect the bailey feminist should plausibly want. If you want to increase the number of people who support your bailey feminism, you can only do so by meeting two conditions:
- You have to treat people who reject your bailey feminism as doing so on account of their doubting premises other than “women are people.”
- You have to be right about those other premises—and be able to demonstrate you are effectively.
Any other form of feminist activism is self-destructive of feminism and thus contrary to the very goals of feminist activism altogether.
So instead of slagging people off as being “against feminism” merely because they are taken in by propaganda or tradition or otherwise skeptical or poorly informed of what is actually, to them, some highly complicated or novel concept or policy, you should be endeavoring instead to listen to them to find out what factual beliefs they actually do have wrong—as odds are high their sympathies are already with the “women are people” premise, and that they are only uneducated or misinformed regarding its application. So educate them—at the very least by directing them to some good resources or activists who have taken up an education front in their activism. In other words, if you don’t have the time, have on hand a researched list of who does. Or else concede you aren’t interested in there being more feminists. In which case, stop arguing for feminism.
The second condition is equally important. You had better have defensibly correct facts to educate anyone with, if you want to persuade them, which means you had better have done your critical research well. Not every bailey is a joke. But every bailey, no matter how valid, is very hard to defend, because getting it requires layers of education and understanding of what are often very complex facts and social realities often beyond the normal experience of the average person, layered with exceptions and nuances, and against which most people have already been programmed by pervasive cultural juggernauts or propaganda. Just like Christians have been.
The analogy is apt: use Christians’ respect for logic and evidence to leverage them out of the faith; likewise, use everyone’s already-standing acceptance of “women are people” to leverage them out of false beliefs and ignorance regarding what’s really going on and how to change it. This is the only valid way to use a motte. Everything else is jimtrickery. In short, don’t just slag everyone off as an unpersuadable bastard and assume you’ve done any good. You’ve done exactly none.
This does not mean you should be this charitable to everyone; some need to be exposed and denounced as impossibly delusional, irrational, or disingenuous, precisely so that fewer others will continue trusting or considering anything they have to say (though even that will backfire if you don’t do it honestly and informedly). But rather, what is self-defeating is treating everyone that way. That is precisely the surest way to change exactly zero minds. And thus gain nothing. This is as true in activism against Christianity as in activism for feminism. Or any other change in the world.
Other Common Motte-and-Baileys
Alexander offers more examples well worth reading, including advocates of “alternative medicine,” and even rationalists and singulatarians. I could add myself defenders of Evolutionary Psychology, who regularly “motte” the claim that some human psychology must have an evolved biological basis—a perfectly obvious truth—and then rush out to defend a bailey mostly occupied by pseudoscientific assertions about specific evolved psychological attributes in humans on a basis of little evidence or even plausibility; and when called out for that, retreat to the motte, indignantly asking how you can dare criticize the bailey, when the motte is so irrefutably true (for a rather thorough demonstration of this device’s widespread deployment in that field, see my article “Is 90% of All EvoPsych False?”). Even more examples come up in the comments on Alexander’s post (nearly all the comments on which are well worth reading).
Shackel, meanwhile, originally used postmodernists as his example, who bailey the notion that all reality is socially constructed, but when rightly ridiculed and soundly refuted on that point, retreat to the motte of merely claiming belief systems are socially constructed. But the latter does not entail the former; it doesn’t even imply it. That’s pulling a motte-and-bailey. Shackel’s discussions of Foucault make an excellent example that illustrates why motte-and-bailey tactics are actually counter-productive to anyone actually interested in making converts to their ideas, at least in the long run. But since people resorting to it are often delusional or otherwise unwilling to face reality, and instead see their opponents only through a filter of prejudice, they resort to it anyway—more, I suspect, to convince themselves and reinforce their prejudices than to actually accomplish anything.
Postmodernism came with some really good ideas—a motte worthy of occupying—such as that all belief-systems, even the most reliable (like science) are in fact social constructs and thus highly viulnerable to prejudices and assumptions and blindspots that any real pursuit of truth must recognize and endeavor to control for or take into account. But it then quickly equated that to absurd nonsense, a ridiculous bailey, such as claiming that if all belief systems are socially constructed, then all belief systems are equally true.
Had postmodernists not resorted to that tactic, of conflating the one with the other, they’d have succeeded in spreading and educating people in those other ideas they had that are actually valid and could have been usefully deployed. But because they wanted to defend their bailey instead, they made postmodernism into a joke, and thus ruined any chance people would notice and adopt their motte, which could have been the one useful contribution they made to society. Instead they buried that useful contribution in a well of suspicion, leaving people timidly worried that the motte is just a Trojan horse for the bailey; so people became suspicious of the motte, rather than approving of it and making good use of it. And thus the postmodernists had exactly the opposite effect on society they had wished.
The same lesson should be learned by anyone who finds their own kind often caught using motte-and-bailey argumentation. (My fellow feminists, I’m looking at you.)
My Own Example
My own example of running up against a motte-and-bailey argument occurred in my debate with Joel McDurmon.
In our debate’s cross-examination period (at video timestamp 52:00 or so), McDurmon asks me, “Are there any things in the natural universe that are non-natural?” I asked him to explain what he meant. He then asked me whether it’s true that since “nature is impersonal” it’s “impossible for nature to have values” and therefore “from the perspective of the universe” there are no value judgments on what happens, like one animal being eaten alive in the wild or rapes another animal.
Then McDurmon switched that around (at around minute 56:00) to, “If a human rapes another human, is that natural?” I answered, “It depends on what you mean by natural; it is a thing that happens in nature” but “if you use ‘natural’ as a synonym of ‘right’ or ‘good’ you’re talking about a different thing” than “natural” as, for example, “that which exists in nature” or “that which is reductively nonmental” so “maybe a billion years ago there were no moral values in the universe” because there were no valuers back then (“or at least, not on earth”).
McDurmon was foiled in his attempt to conflate “natural” with “good.” Then he came back at me (around minute 57:30 or so) with, “Are you saying human morality is contra-natural?” To which I answered, “Human morality is a part of nature, in the sense that nature created us. But nature passes no judgment; it doesn’t even have a mind [with which] to pass judgment over what we are doing, with the things nature gave us.” So, I said, if you mean by “nature” everything that exists, then you are including valuers as among those natural things that exist.
Stymied, he tried again, asking, “So morality is against nature prior to humans?” I responded, “Yeah, if you want to look at it in the same way that technology is.” He then said, “You would say it’s something like an improvement over and above nature.” I then said, “Yeah, human morality, just like human government, is an invention; we made it up; we built it, in order to make our lives better.” To which he replies, “Do you have a word for something that is over and above nature?” Catching his trickery, I answered contrary to his expected manner with, “It’s not over and above nature. It’s under and a product of nature, of entities within nature.”
He kept trying to get me to claim morality is supernatural, as in “above nature.” I saw him coming a mile away and didn’t let him get away with it. I saw this as an equivocation fallacy; he was switching between different definitions of “natural,” first switching its meaning between “good” and “naturally caused,” and then on the one hand meaning “not man-made” and on the other hand meaning “in nature.” Of course everything humans make is natural, since humans are a product of nature; but that’s not what people mean when they contrast “made by humans” (e.g. eyeglasses; democratic republics; morality) with what just arises “by nature” (e.g. eyes, laws of refraction, emotions).
However, I can now see this as a motte-and-bailey. The motte is the obviously unarguable position that some things are invented and constructed by human beings and would not exist but for us conceiving and making them, whereas some things just arise in and from nature without human or any other intelligent design. The bailey is the ridiculous position that therefore some things are “above” nature and thus cannot be explanined by natural causes and forces. And the trick is pretending these are the same thing, so any defense of the one amounts to conceding the other. Thus McDurmon aimed to get me to defend the motte, then tried tricking me into agreeing this was the same thing as the bailey. He earlier did the same between the bailey of “everything in nature is good” and the motte of “everything in nature is natural.”
I wasn’t fooled.
The Harris-Klein Motte and Bailey
Another example I’ll close with becomes clear in a very good analysis of the Sam Harris-Ezra Klein debate written up by John Nerst in A Deep Dive into the Harris-Klein Controversy. Which is another really excellent article I highly recommend a full reading of, not least for its illustration of a procedure in Critical Thinking analysis of studying why a disagreement occurred and persisted between two otherwise intelligent, informed people. We can learn from such an analysis how not to fall victim to the same errors they did. And one of those lessons is: always spot and call out the motte-and-bailey. Even when you catch yourself using it. Because if that’s happening, you need to stop.
The Harris-Klein controversy had to do with human intelligence measures (in particular IQ, which only measures a narrow set of skills) and whether black people are inferior to white people on that measure. Ostensibly Harris was defending the “yes” and Klein the “no” answer to that question. For which Harris was widely derided. Which widespread derision made him angry, defensive, and belligerent, rather than sparking any improving self-reflection or genuine listening or learning. Another good lesson in Critical Thinking: check your emotions when they might be impeding your reason; stop and seriously consider whether you may be wrong.
I think Nerst’s overall assessment is correct:
I came away from the email conversation [between Harris and Klein that Harris published] with the impression that Harris got unhinged and retracted his invitation to have Klein come on his podcast for no good reason. And he had released this exchange himself, obviously thinking people would take his side and it’d reflect badly on Klein. That’s not what happened. Many thought Harris came off as the unreasonable party (and I can certainly see that). It’s quite remarkable how he could be so convinced that publishing the exchange would be primarily embarrasing for Klein. His anger also seemed out of character; I’ve listened to a few of his podcasts and he comes off as well-reasoned, balanced and rational. Nonetheless he appears to be the one responsible for the conversation deteriorating somewhere in the middle. Why this reaction from him? To find out one has to trace the conversation backwards.
Harris has a habit of this: he gets emotional when his misrepresentation of someone provokes a justifiably heated response, doesn’t listen to them at all, loses his shit, and publishes a private email conversation he had with them thinking it will reflect badly on his interlocutor, when in fact it only exposes how unreasonable and wrong Harris was, and how difficult it is to explain anything to him or have any productive arguments with him when he is for some unfathomable reason dead set on never admitting a mistake.
Harris did this with Chomsky, for example. It didn’t go well for Harris (as noted by Lew Blank, Denny Taylor, New Matilda, Andrew Aghapour, and so on). Which doesn’t mean I entirely agree with Chomsky, but Harris definitely did not learn a thing from his dispute with him, and nearly everything Chomsky said in critique of Harris was correct. Something similar happened when Harris completely failed to understand Daniel Dennett and again learned nothing.
One of the key failure modes in these exchanges is motte-and-bailey reasoning. As Nerst shows in the dispute with Klein. Nerst sums this up elegantly as follows:
[W]hat [Klein] describe[s] is a motte-and-bailey—an argument structure based on a medieval warfare metaphor where there is one conservative (as in cautious) and easily defendable version of an idea (the motte), and another more bold, far-reaching version that’s the one you really want to push (the bailey). You promote the bailey (often by implication) to get what you want, but retreat to the motte version when challenged. “I was only saying…”
Does this describe [what Sam Harris and Bell Curve author Charles Murray are doing]? Structurally, yes (although I’m not convinced it’s intentional). The motte is the largely uncontroversial claims 1-5 [that IQ is real and measurable and produced by a mixture of genes and environment, and racial differences in it exist], and them making (6) plausible…
Where “6” means, as Nerst puts it, that those “racial differences…have a significant genetic component” and “secondarily” that “there are currently no effective means of permanently raising intelligence through environmental interventions.” In other words, racial differences in IQ are genetic, and there is nothing to be done about it. Ergo (as Murray’s political activism demonstrates) we should stop helping black people and just accept their inferiority.
Nerst rightly spies that:
The bailey is that (6) is true and genetic differences plus the lack of reliable methods to raise IQ’s by manipulating the environment implies that the racial gap can’t be closed and this justifies Murray’s preferred policies.
While Klein clearly understands the structure, he doesn’t seem to get that Harris’ anger makes sense if you think of only the motte as in play.
Harris motte-and-baileyed himself. And refused to accept the fact that Murray used Harris to do that. Even after Klein extensively demonstrated it to him. Harris keeps thinking if he defends the motte, he’s defended the bailey; while simultaneously insisting he never defended the bailey, despite evidence he did indeed, and even helped Murray do so by defending him and never challenging Murray’s bailey. Nerst’s analysis makes this very clear.
Klein also rightly comes in for criticism. But the ultimate takeaway is that Harris incorrectly thought Murray was being unfairly attacked and deplatformed and so on because he argued some unconstroversial scientific facts (points “1-5,” the motte); when in fact, that opposition was in response to Murray’s advancement of a claim nowhere yet in evidence, point “6,” the bailey. No one was attacking Murray for defending 1-5. That Harris thought so is a grave error, one that recruited Harris into defending a notorious racist, and then remaining totally blind to why Harris was rightly attacked for doing that. So far as I know, Harris remains blind to this to this day. He was suckered by a motte-and-bailey. And owing to his ego, never escaped it.
Harris also keeps repeating the mistake of confusing a legitimate argument (that we should be very cautious of giving cover to dangerous ideas that aren’t empirically supported) with a completely different idea that outrages him, thus triggering his emotions rather than his reason (that we should not be allowed to explore whether dangerous ideas are nevertheless true, or not admit they are when empirically confirmed). He confuses people attacking him for what they perceive as his blindness to the former, as people attacking him for not accepting the latter. But that isn’t what’s going on. No one is really arguing the latter; they are arguing the former. Which ought not be controversial. A fact again to which Harris remains stalwartly blind. They aren’t even using that motte-and-bailey against him. He’s invented it in his own mind.
In truth, even Murray’s own science found that no more than 5 IQ points of difference between white and black people in America can be explained by genetics. And even that has not been shown to be a genetic difference. In fact, as not every environmental cause has been controlled for in any study to date (Murray’s or any other), it’s very unlikely all of those five points can be genetic. But the real kicker here is that the error margin for IQ tests is in the vicinity of 10 points. That’s right. Racial differences in IQ, should there even be any, are so trivial as to fall beneath even the error margin of measuring it. I can easily vary myself from one day to the next by as much as 10 points in IQ, if I took one test of it today and a different one tomorrow. So who the flock cares about five points? It can have no meaningful difference in outcomes or expressed abilities.
That Harris never notices or comments on this point is a large part of why people are appalled at him. He cares more about the mere abstraction of what scientists should be allowed to study than about the way Murray’s claims are actually used to support racist beliefs and policies—even by Murray himself! Which is appalling. I think Harris should attend more to the actual consequences and context of what he does and says. Most folks think the same. That’s why they are angry with him. And I don’t think Harris understands this. But good Critical Thinkers should understand this. Because if you want to minimize the harm and maximize the good you do in the world with your actions and words, you need to be much better at discerning these things.
Nerst goes on to explain several other very useful things about how and why disagreements become intractable, and what we could do about that if we cared to, using this exchange again as example, finding due fault in both Klein and Harris. All require critically analyzing your emotional reactions and re-evaluating their aptness when due, by understanding better what’s actually going on in your disagreement with someone—and what the consequences really are, and their appropriate triage. Sam Harris is notoriously bad at doing this—and seems to me almost contemptuous of the very idea that he should try to get better at it. Good critical thinkers must do better.
Conclusion
Motte-and-bailey is also a good example of how ideas can have multiple kinds of opposites depending on which axis of comparison you are keying on. Usually we say the opposite of “straw manning” is steel manning: making an opponent’s position into its strongest possible form before attempting to criticize it; or critiquing its strongest defender, rather than its weakest. Unless you are looking at a different axis of comparison, in which case the opposite of straw manning is, indeed, motte-and-bailey: a “straw man” attacks a weak position to defeat a strong one; a “motte and bailey” defends a strong position in order to protect a weak one. Both are fallacious; as in, neither device validly produces its intended conclusion.
Keep your eye out for the motte-and-bailey tactic. Defending a weaker or more difficult position by pretending it’s the same thing as a much narrower, stronger, less controversial position is not only illogical, its destructive of progress in knowledge; using it or having it used on you prevents you teaching or learning anything. It is counter to the aims of any productive activism for any cause. Just as focusing solely on straw men of positions contrary to your own will always fail to rescue you from false or inaccurate beliefs, thus ensuring you are forever buried in a lot of them.
So like the straw man, call out the motte-and-bailey whenever it gets used on you. And please don’t ever use it yourself—if you want to defend a bailey, defend the damned bailey, don’t pretend it’s identical to the motte. And when you catch others at this conflation, when you do call it out, the delusional who are using it will flee, not wishing to admit even to themselves that’s what just happened. But reasonable people might start to see the light. And everyone looking on will be inoculated against the device by your very exposing of it.
I would love to collect in comments below your own documented examples (hyperlinked and quoted or timestamped) of any motte-and-bailey argumentation you’ve seen yourself and can document for others to study.
I’ve got another example of this that I would like to share. For centuries Christians have been proclaiming that “Jesus is coming soon!”
When you ask them to quantity what they mean by “soon” they retort that nobody but the father knows the exact date of Jesus return, but better to be prepared for his return (which is coming soon).
That’s a good example.
Really good analysis, as usual. Something that you pointed toward (not sure if you said it outright) is that there is a worrying tendency (especially in political debates!) for people to confuse disagreements regarding methods for disagreements regarding goals. Your affirmative action example reminded me of a discussion I had with an Indian friend, who fell into a trap like those feminists you noted did. He could not accept that someone could be against affirmative action for the so-called “backward classes” in India whilst wanting their lives to improve, even though those policies seem to have had disastrous effects. That is, if you disagree with affirmative action (a method), you therefore disagree with the proposition that something needs to be done to help disadvantaged people in India. It simply (apparently) could not be the case that you wanted to help the disadvantages, but thought that a particular favoured method would not achieve that end.
As an aside though, to be honest, even after taking your class regarding the science of free will, I came away thinking that it was Dennett who had ultimately failed in his debate with Harris (though both certainly, and frustratingly, devoted a lot of time to talking passed each other). The specifics are a blur now, but I recall also leaning on Harris’s side in the debate with Klein too. Despite these exceptions, I often find Harris a bit grating, as he always seems to be flummoxed by the idea that people can disagree with him (I know you’ve noted this flaw in him quite often), even when he says things that really aren’t straightforward (e.g., regarding politics or philosophy), so I do not really follow him much.
Thanks for the great read and for the references.
Would this apply to all those apologists who only make arguments for classical theism rather than the much more specific (and obviously flawed) version of their Christianity/Islam?
Maybe.
That would be if they did it like this: “X proves a generic God exists” (motte), “therefore you should accept Christ and the authority of the Bible” (bailey), atheist destroys the plausibility of Christianity and the Bible, theist responds with “but you haven’t refuted X!” (retreats to the motte).
That’s right too. But that’s not a motte-and-bailey error, of course. It’s a straightforward affirming the consequent error: people make that error by confusing the fact that people who deny the problem exists or should be solved attack the method with the mistaken assumption that therefore anyone who attacks the method wants (or secretly wants) to deny the problem exists or should be solved. The error is easy to make not only because human brains are evolutionarily prone to that error but also because these people look and sound and act identically.
For example, racists work hard to sound reasonable and not motivated by their racism, and thus work hard to sound exactly like people who aren’t racists, leading to confusion regarding who really is a racist, and since people are made physically uncomfortable by uncertainty (another evolved cognitive defect), they grab at any solution to resolving doubt they can, no matter how fallacious.
With Harris debates, I find that when people sympathize with Harris they are making the same mistake Harris does: getting wrong what is even being debated.
Harris mistakenly thinks he was debating with Klein whether scientists should be allowed to study whether racial IQ differences exist; while Klein was never arguing that with him (and never really figured out Harris didn’t know what Klein was arguing). This is why they talk past each other. And its Harris’s emotions that prevent him ever figuring this out. Klein by contrast of course knew what he was debating the whole time, and erred only in not figuring out how Harris didn’t know that, and in how he emotionally reacted to Harris’s emotional responses (precisely because Klein didn’t figure out why Harris was reacting that way).
Similarly with Dennett. Harris thinks they were arguing physics. But Dennett was arguing semantics. Harris never gets this in the free will debate. Likewise Harris thinks they are arguing ivory tower ideas. But Dennett is arguing real-world application.
But here the mistake is driven by Harris being so invested in certain conclusions he desperately wants to be true which he bases on his semantic position on free will, and because Dennett is being charitable, it doesn’t occur to him that this is really all motivated by an agenda that Harris is not explicitly laying out (even Harris is probably unaware that he is using this for an agenda). So Dennett never thinks to point out that those conclusions don’t even logically follow from Harris’s positions on free will, and that it’s a fool’s errand to defend an ivory tower semantics of free will merely to protect those conclusions. Harris’s hidden motivations thus removed, he might start to understand what Dennett is actually saying about free will.
(I discuss a lot of this in my article on it, which I link to in my article above where I bring this debate up.)
Thanks for taking the time to respond in such depth.
When I first read through their debate, it didn’t seem to me as though Dennett quite nailed the point about semantics either. Reading his responses, I could see what was frustrating Harris. As I recall, Dennett also came across as more than a little abrasive in his responses, which might have served as a distraction that could have harmed his chances of getting his points across.
I remember after your class coming away frustrated that the term “compatibilism” was the one adopted by people like Dennett, and I felt this was the core of the misunderstanding. The term itself ‘seems’ to imply that free will is somehow separate to determinism but can work with it, when in fact, our free will is part of a deterministic framework and in no way separate to it. To say that something that is already part of something else is ‘compatible’ with it seems like a tautology. Perhaps Harris saw things similarly and so assumed that Dennett must, therefore, have been arguing that the two things are separate and compatible.
Not sure how you felt about it, but I found it really interesting how divided the audience of that debate was. Whether or not I came to the right answer myself, I really enjoyed all of the debates and discussions that arose from it. Indeed, that is what drove me to try out your class :D.
As a side note, I know exactly what you mean about the problem of Harris mistaking what is being debated. One of his most famous monologues was his dig at Christianity in his debate against William Lane Craig. I quite enjoyed the joust, and I seldom feel any urge to defend Bill, but when I took a moment to think about it, Harris had done virtually nothing to answer the question at hand, and had ignored almost everything that Bill had said. One of his best little speeches was simultaneously one of his worst rebuttals lol.
I wonder if the claim that “any islamocritic is also islamofobic” isn’t an example of a motte-and-bailey ? Or, in this case the mixing of two motte-and-baileys, namely motte-1 : all belief system are social constructs and motte-2 : all people should be respected => bailey-1 : all belief system are equivalent (morally, politically…) and bailey-2 : not respecting a belief-system is not respecting the believer
Well to analyze that properly, find and link here, and quote to illustrate, an actual example we can look at. Then we can break down what someone actually thought or argued and whether it was actually on those lines.
Scott Alexander has another article addressing something like this and finds it’s generally not really what anyone argues. Rather, more typically they argue the reverse: that criticizing Islam should not be allowed to motivate bad foreign and domestic policies aimed at innocent Muslims, for exactly the same reason criticizing Israel should not be allowed to motivate antisemitism. The motte-and-bailey is thus what they are criticizing, not using: whereby one argues “Islam is a broken ideology” (motte) therefore “we should protest the building of mosques in the U.S. and profile all Arabs at airports” (bailey) and any critique of the latter is answered with “how dare you suggest we can’t criticize Islamic ideology!” Classic motte-and-bailey.
But whether any liberals actually use the kind of motte-and-bailey you are talking about instead, I’d need to see an actual quotable example.
You are right, this is not an actual example, but rather one I imagined some liberals would use. But I’ll be on the look-out for it ! And you’re also right about the actual – reverse – use of this tactic by actual islamophobes 🙂 ! Well spotted !
I have to say, the description of feminism you and Alexander both provide itself reads a little like a motte and bailey.
Rhetorically, I don’t say “Feminism is just the belief that women are people” when someone disagrees with me on affirmative action. They may delusively reconstuct that as the order of events, but that isn’t what happens. Rather, I and most feminists I’ve encountered say something that, yes, feminists could disagree upon, like that quotas can be a good thing, and someone then says that this means we are man-hating harpies or evil male feminist enablers. We then have to correct them on the basics.
Similarly, I and many other affirmative action advocates will not concede the ground that quotas are necessarily bad so rapidly. They can be in the wrong context, but there is actually good research that they work. Even Dr. King, contrary to self-serving conservative revisionism, was not only in favor of quotas based on the success of programs in India but in fact quotas based on proportions of the population!
But then some jackass will say that this proves that affirmative action is about hating men or what not. And we then have to correct them and say, no, affirmative action is actually just any proactive program to recruit minorities. That doesn’t mean I’ve stopped defending quotas. It means I refuse to let my opponent miseducate people. Quotas are one possible affirmative action implementation. If they can be shown decisively to be a bad idea, then we move on to a different implementation.
In my experience, as I am sure is true of yours as well, this kind of back and forth comes about overwhelmingly because of the disingenuity and mythology of the other side. My goal is to get people talking about policy and cultural change. Anti-feminists will then derail the conversation with a Solanas quote, and so I then have to educate them on the existence of diverse feminists. Once I have done that, and wrung that concession out from them (that feminists are not all castrati and that by their standard I can accuse them of being the next Elliot Rodgers), I then go back to defending a leftist feminism… which leads back to the original bailey.
There are feminists who do. Only they are being thus criticized. If you assumed any of us meant “all feminists do this,” you have succumbed to another cognitive bias of a rather different kind, which Alexander writes about elsewhere. We never said that. That you thought we did is troubling. See to that error and endeavor to not make it again.
That there are also anti-feminists who pull all the shit you describe is also true. But not what my article is about. I’ve written other articles on that stuff.
If anything, what you need to learn is not to assume everyone who pushes back on some concept is a disingenuous anti-feminist running game on you. They might be. But you have to test that before assuming it. “Rounding error” (assuming everyone who is wrong or disagrees with us is evil) is destructive of our feminist cause.
“There are feminists who do. Only they are being thus criticized. If you assumed any of us meant “all feminists do this,” you have succumbed to another cognitive bias of a rather different kind, which Alexander writes about elsewhere. We never said that. That you thought we did is troubling. See to that error and endeavor to not make it again.”
I didn’t see that. What I did see is that there was insufficient care to the reality that there are also feminists who others claim sound like this but are not, such that discussing these feminists can end up being friendly fire against those who aren’t. When Alexander says, “The feminists who constantly argue about whether you can be a real feminist or not without believing in X, Y and Z and wanting to empower women in some very specific way, and who demand everybody support controversial policies like affirmative action or affirmative consent laws (bailey)”, he doesn’t then, say, note that affirmative action and affirmative consent, while controversial, are also far from extremist. They are mainstream suggestions. Nor does he acknowledge the possibility that even the feminists he is discussing have responded the way they have precisely because they have seen that, literally without exception, the people pushing back against them are always doing so from misogynistic assumptions that can in fact be responded to by “Women are people”. In other words, I think Alexander’s point, though fine in a vacuum, is one of those criticisms that doesn’t take into account the actual activist context.
As always, the problem is to identify who we are talking about. Do these feminists exist? I’m sure they do. I’ve never seen them, but I am sure they do exist (and, yes, I’ve seen extremist feminists I disagree with). Does Alexander cite an example? Does he specify how many, or what kind, of feminists he’s discussing? I didn’t see him doing so, and you certainly did not specify anyone (or even a specific group). And the problem is that some groups, like feminists, already get enough erroneous criticism that without being exceedingly careful one can add onto anti-feminist (and ultimately sexist) mythology, the same kind you criticize. Normally you’re better in pieces like this to steelman, say, affirmative action or quotas, even when you don’t agree with the proposal. Here I didn’t see that care.
My response didn’t even say that Alexander said all feminists are like this, by the way. I just noted that there is a motte-and-bailey against any kind of feminism that becomes more radical than wholly centrist empowerment feminism: First saying “You people are radical and affirmative action is a disaster” (or some similar claim), then upon criticism saying “No, I’m just talking about Solanas and Dworkin”, only to go right back to criticizing any activist approach the moment that the conflation is called out.
So, yes, you are right. Not everyone is running some kind of game. But
a) the people who are benefit from the people who aren’t
and
b) activists in the trenches can’t tell ahead of time
I’m reminded of the firebrand/diplomat distinction in atheism. You would definitely be further on the firebrand side in atheism, and I imagine you would defend those like Aron Ra who take a harsh tack. I’m closer to a firebrand feminist, though still more conciliatory, and here I think you are closer to a diplomat. Your rhetoric here sounds like the diplomat atheists who criticize the firebrands without recognizing the firebrands having a critical role in a movement with diverse approaches.
My point is that Alexander’s argument, as he originally stated it, will misidentify many activists who know perfectly well (as I did before you offered a corrective) that not everyone is running game but that sometimes one has to make a judgment call and smack down a bad argument when the balance of probability says that some game is being played. The anti-affirmative action mythology is as pernicious as the anti-wage gap mythology.
The mere fact that neither you nor Alexander noted that there are people who are in favor both of quotas in some contexts and softer affirmative action in others, folks like Tim Wise and myself, is worrisome, because it plays into a narrative that says “There is no middle ground between quotas everywhere and some vague ‘companies should try harder’ approach, and anyone who says anything beyond ‘companies should try harder’ is in favor of quotas”, despite your positive intent. Heck, there are approaches that are neither quotas nor softer affirmative action, including some that go through the state for affirmative action. The very fact that I had to note that quotas can be proportional to a population or just fixed, to say nothing about the fact that quotas can range from mandatory to merely being a goal, which the original article really didn’t (almost certainly because of time and focus), is illustrative to me.
The same applies to the “wearing lipstick” bit. From this article alone, a person reading would have no understanding that there are a scant few feminists who object to makeup anytime, anywhere and far, far more feminists who in the Anita Sarkeesian vein of criticizing “choice feminists” note that there is a collective cost that can be imposed by individual actions. Of course people should wear what they want in an ideal world. But we don’t live in an ideal world. In this one, a lot of people want to wear makeup for reasons that have to do with internalized sexist tropes and a “choice feminism” approach can lead to them never having to confront why they want to look like that, and a lot of people wearing makeup and dresses can reinforce the idea that those who aren’t are just some weird minority. What overwhelmingly happens is that someone publishes an article pointing out the hidden assumptions behind, say, how “looking good” in the workplace varies so sharply between men and women and how little sense that makes, and a number of people, both innocent commentators and honey badgers, erroneously think that the article is saying “Makeup bad”. And then, in the debates over the article, activists end up finding out that, surprise surprise, a ton (no, not all, but many) of those arguing for makeup are actually deeply sexist in their root assumptions. And then someone else reconstructs a delusive version of the conversation where that realization never happened. Your piece didn’t note how frequently this happens, which I think is an oversight.
Your feminist writing is usually fairly spot on; this time it seemed a little more like taking a pot shot internal to the movement, though you did take quite a bit of care to then note that there are valid defenses of affirmative action to go along with the fact that there are valid criticisms. I just worry when I see the criticisms highlighted and the defenses having not been. The criticisms are well-known. The defenses are less so, in my experience.
This is useful!
I’m going to have to be vigilant I don’t do this myself.
Of course, when I do it, it is merely to simplify the argument for clarity. That’s sarcasm, btw ;>D