A while ago I composed Historicity Big and Small: How Historians Try to Rescue Jesus, summarizing and categorizing the main arguments pushed in a kind of phylogeny. Here I will expand on that by adding a few more arguments, within the same scheme I constructed there.
Both of these articles start from the position of honest, mainstream scholarship, which admits that we have no non-mythical sources for Jesus: the Gospels mostly contain fabrication or embellishment (and it is difficult to discern what if anything about Jesus in them is true); half the Epistles are forged and the other half speak of Jesus in highly esoteric, cosmo-theological ways that are largely divorced from any real life of Jesus; and all other sources simply trace back to those (and therefore are of no real use in arguing for the historicity of Jesus).
In that context, arguing for some mundane guy on top of whom all that myth and theology was stacked can be reduced to three broad categories of argument:
- The Argument from the Gospels.
- The Argument from General Probability.
- The Argument from the Epistles.
Within the first class of arguments can be grouped these, which are all Arguments from Evidence-Likelihood:
- Arguments from Hypothetical Sources (Premise 01, “It can be proved that the Gospels used early, eyewitness, Palestinian sources for some of their historical claims about Jesus”). Which is both false and fallacious.
- Arguments from Embarrassment (Premise 05, “Some claim about Jesus in the Gospels would not be in the Gospels unless it actually happened”). Which is also both false and fallacious.
Within the second class of arguments can be grouped these, which can all be framed as Arguments to Prior Probability:
- Arguments from “The Jews Would Never,” Variant 1 (Premise 07, “Jews would never invent a messiah because they needed their messiah to be a real historical conqueror”). Which is false.
- Arguments from “The Jews Would Never,” Variant 2 (Premise 11, “Jews would never consider a savior who is killed to be the messiah, because the messiah by definition had to be victorious”). Which is false.
- Arguments from “The Jews Would Never,” Variant 3 (Premise 15, “The idea of a messiah who would become victorious by dying, would never occur to a Jew, unless confronted by an actual candidate (like Jesus) being killed”). Which is false.
- Arguments from Founders (Premise 17, “Like all religions, Christianity must have had a founder,” therefore it must be Jesus). Which is a non sequitur.
- Arguments from Early Repetition (Premise 22, “A person mentioned many times within decades of his alleged life is more likely historical than mythical”). Which is not demonstrably true.
Within the third class of arguments can be grouped just one category of argumentation, which is another Argument from Evidence-Likelihood:
- Arguments from Explicit Indication (Premise 20, “An epistle author said something that he would not have said unless there was a real historical Jesus”). Which is valid reasoning but factually debatable.
I discuss all these arguments and why they fail and what they would need to succeed in my previous article. I also summarize what historians really need to do to make any of these arguments work in How to Successfully Argue Jesus Existed (or Anything Else in the World). Of course my direct case that there probably never was even a mundane Jesus, that in fact he started his existence as a revelatory figment of apostolic imagination, you will find in my colloquial account in Jesus from Outer Space, and in my thorough, heavily academic, peer-reviewed account in On the Historicity of Jesus.
More Arguments from the Gospels
The arguments I’ll add for consideration here are substantially weaker than the ones I summarized originally; I thus include them now only for completeness, and because people still sometimes ask about them. There aren’t really any substantially new Arguments from the Epistles; those all amount to the same argument I already diagrammed. But there are some Arguments from the Gospels I didn’t diagram that do come up from time to time, although they are not exactly good ones.
First up is what I call the Argument from Pilate. It goes something like this:
- P24. Christians were required to declare faith in a creed that included historical facts that entail Jesus probably existed, such as that Jesus was crucified by the Roman officer Pontius Pilate.
- P25. Probably no one would declare faith in a creed that included historical facts that they knew were false.
- C09. Therefore, Jesus probably existed.
P25 is plausible enough, if we assume that the Christians we’re talking about would be in a position to know whether those facts were false. Exceptions, cases where people will declare faith in things they know are factually false, are certainly at best rare and thus unlikely without specific evidence establishing an exception existed. But that required assumption is precisely the problem. Both P25 and P24 are false in the only relevant sense either could be true: if they refer to Christians who would be in a position to know. But Christian creeds conspicuously did not include any such “historical facts” for at least a whole human lifetime, possibly two. So P24 does not apply to original Christianity; and P25 does not apply to later Christianity. In neither period are both premises true; ergo the argument cannot proceed to its conclusion. It describes a combined state of affairs that never existed.
It is not until eighty-to-a-hundred or more years after the religion began that such “facts” were inserted into the creeds Christians were required to declare faith in, and then told to shun any Christians who didn’t likewise affirm them. All evidence indicates by the time we start hearing of historical facts being inserted into their creeds (sometime in the early second century: see How Did Christianity Switch to a Historical Jesus?), Christians were no longer in any position to know what was really true or false about the founding of their cult a century before (see my discussion of the methodological problems facing such Christians in Chapter 7 of Not the Impossible Faith; and my survey of evidence in Chapters 13 and 17 thereof that Christians made no effort at all even capable of finding out, and even discouraged such efforts; I summarize some of this as well in The Scientist in the Early Roman Empire, pp. 500-20).
Which actually evinces the opposite conclusion: this pattern is evidence those facts were invented, not that they were true, and that there were even Christian believers insisting those facts were false (the ones the others were told to shun; we have similar evidence of such Christians denying those facts in the forgery of 2 Peter). In other words, the actual evidence conforms to the theory that such historical facts were invented and insisted upon later and for reasons other than their being true. And wherever this is insisted upon, we see that no real evidence is ever presented that they were true, evincing the fact that there was no such evidence to present. All of this actually supports mythicism, not historicity.
Similar is the Argument from Verisimilitude:
- P26. The Gospels’ accounts of Jesus possess “verisimilitude,” correctly describing the geography and customs and personnel of first century Judea and relating encounters with substantial realism.
- P27. Persons described in sources possessing verisimilitude probably existed.
- C10. Therefore, Jesus probably existed.
I’ve already explained everything wrong with this argument in Formalized Gullibility as a Modern Christian Methodology. Neither premise is true. Even The Iliad often contains verisimilitude; Achilles is still not likely to have existed, nor the goddess Athena, who in that work actually walks up to people and has conversations with them like it’s a regular thing. And even more realistic myth and fiction than that was produced in antiquity. So P27 is false. And the Gospels actually substantially deviate from verisimilitude, getting many things wrong and describing highly unrealistic encounters in almost every scene, as much or more so than The Iliad (as I demonstrate in Chapter 6 of Jesus from Outer Space). So P26 is false. There just isn’t any sound argument to be had here.
There is one sense in which a version of this argument would be sound—but as with most attempts to apply “criteria” to the Gospels to extract history from their self-evident mythology, that version of the argument would not apply to the Gospels (see my demonstration of that for all criteria attempted in Chapter 5 of Proving History). This is the argument that when historical information is presented realistically not in a context of attempting to produce a believable or familiar context but incidentally, in passing or without any evident intention, habit, or need to fabricate, and by a person who describes how they know what they relate, and it is a plausible means of their knowing it, then we can assign a high prior probability to what they relate being true. But that prior can still be overcome by evidence to the contrary; and regardless, the Gospels are not in any way such a source (see my methodological discussions in So What About Hannibal, Then? and my articles Craig vs. Law on the Argument from Contamination and Is the Principle of Contamination Invalid?).
There are also variants of this argument that resemble the Argument from Pilate, which I will here call the Argument from Real People: “stories depicting someone interacting with real people (like Pontius Pilate) are usually true,” which is just another false instantiation of P27. Indeed Judeo-Christian mythology was especially prone to inventing fake people interacting with real ones, from the biographies of mythical Saints in the Middle Ages, to a mythical Moses interacting with a real Pharaoh, a mythical Daniel interacting with a real Nebuchadnezzar, and so on. Outside Christianity we find mythical heroes interacting with a real king Agamemnon, fictional heroes interacting with real Emperors, and so on. So the mere fact of placing real people in a story is not sufficient to evince the story itself is not a fiction.
In a sense this argument is not an argument from evidence but an attempt at an argument from prior probability, something like:
- P28. Jesus belongs to a reference class, “persons depicted as interacting with real people,” whose members are all or mostly historical.
- P29. People who belong to sets whose members are all or mostly historical probably existed.
- C11. Therefore Jesus probably existed.
But this logic runs afoul of the reference class problem I discuss in Chapter 6.5 of On the Historicity of Jesus (“The Alternative Class Objection”): Jesus actually belongs to the reference class of not just “persons” but “highly mythologized superheroes depicted as interacting with real people,” and the members of that set are not so consistently historical. Worse, the intersection of all the mythotypes Jesus belongs to (OHJ, Chapter 5) and the set of “persons depicted as interacting with real people” contains only one member: Jesus. Therefore no conclusion can be reached about the frequency of such persons being historical from that datum. So here P29 is false: it is not always the case that “persons” in such sets usually existed; it depends on what sort of “person” is being “placed” in history and how. Reference class arguments cannot ignore data. And we have much more data as to the reference class Jesus belongs to than just “the set of all persons depicted as interacting with historical figures.”
Another variant of the Argument from Verisimilitude I shall call the Argument from Name Frequency, and it is peculiar enough to be given its own description:
- P30. The names of the people mentioned in the Gospels occur at the same frequency as real names did in Palestine of the time.
- P31. As myth and fiction are unlikely to exactly replicate real name frequencies, a person whose narratives do that, probably did exist.
- C12. Therefore, Jesus probably did exist.
This is better known as “the Bauckham argument” (presented in Richard Bauckham’s Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, pp. 67-91; for a list of critiques of Bauckham’s entire apologetic project see OHJ, p. 397 n. 20). It’s actually false. After Bauckham spells out this argument (pp. 67-84), he purports to prove it with an extensive list of data (pp. 85-91). But it’s masterfully ironic that the conclusion of his argument (p. 84) is directly refuted by his own data (pp. 85-91). I don’t know whether to conclude he is lying and just hoping no one actually checks his data, or if he is so wildly incompetent he doesn’t even know his data disconfirm his thesis.
Either way, though P31 has some merit (it could form in some cases a usable argument to a prior probability), P30 is not only false, it is so egregiously false as to sooner establish exactly the opposite conclusion: the Gospels’ peculiar failure to match real name frequencies among the people encountered is evidence their narratives are fabricated. Right from the start, as Bauckham’s own data show, “Jesus” (Joshua) was one of the most common names for Palestinian men, yet somehow Jesus spans a year or more long ministry and never once meets anyone else named Jesus. Even in the book of Acts, no one ever meets another Jesus in Palestine (the lone mythical anti-Jesus met there is actually on Cyprus, is not named Jesus or indeed any common name, but portrayed as “the son of Jesus,” and is in no way plausibly a real person).
The Gospels (and the Palestinian scenes in Acts) also ignore many other common names that mysteriously are missing (like Ananias, Jonathan, Manahem, and Annas), while including many bizarre names almost never heard of in Judea, a category of names that appears to an unusually high frequency, like Nicodemus and Bartimaeus. And the frequency of even the common names the Gospels do include is not actually peculiarly close to their actual frequency in ancient Judea. For example, there should be more Lazaruses and Matthews and fewer Jameses (Jacobs). Yet in fact so few names are used in the Gospels that the actual statistical argument Bauckham intends is not even valid. He never produces any actual statistical argument anyway, e.g. he does not determine any expected range of frequencies given the sample size to account for random variation, neither for the names in the Gospels, nor for the names that aren’t.
Most of the common names used in the Gospels are actually mythically significant Biblical names and thus already expected for symbolic resonance (so, they were popular among the actual population for the same reason they were popular with Gospel mythographers). Which evinces a cardinal rule of historical method: you cannot argue your hypothesis is probable without comparing its predictive success to that of its strongest competitor (see Advice on Probabilistic Reasoning and If You Learn Nothing Else). And the Gospels evince a tendency to choose and even invent mythically significant names, which means that hypothesis outperforms Bauckham’s.
For example, James (Jacob) is a Biblically significant name with important theological meanings we expect the Gospels to rely on a lot. By contrast, as Bauckham’s own tables show, in the actual population of Judea this name is attested in extant records only 40 times, whereas rare names (as a combined category) are attested over 500 times: so there should be over ten times more rare names than Jameses attested in the Gospels. But there isn’t. Not even close. And here I mean rare names that are themselves each attested 10-25 times more often than the bizarre names the Gospels instead use like Nicodemus. So even the rare names the Gospels do employ are bizarrely rare, not “ordinarily rare,” and yet “conveniently meaningful” (e.g. Nicodemus means “People’s Victory,” and accordingly in the legend he appears in he champions the people against elite snobbery). Which pretty much turns Bauckham’s argument against him: the names evidence in the Gospels is actually evidence of their being mythical, not historical. Still, that doesn’t mean Jesus didn’t exist. But it does mean we can’t use the Gospels to prove he did.
More Arguments from General Probability
Then there are some other Arguments from General Probability, some arguments to a prior probability and some arguments from evidence. For example, we could add a new Argument from Founders, Variant 2, which is in this case more like an argument from evidence:
- P32. The teachings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels are radically different from anyone else of the time.
- P33. If teachings radically different from anyone else of the time are attributed to someone, that someone probably existed.
- C13. Therefore, Jesus probably existed.
For example, it will be claimed that “No one else taught anyone to turn the other cheek, to walk the extra mile, that we’re all family.” That’s P32. And “no one would have invented such a character.” That’s P33, which basically amounts to “Only Founders Can Innovate.” Both are false.
There is actually almost nothing attributed to Jesus that isn’t found taught by others, contemporaries and predecessors, Jewish and Pagan (from Hillelite Rabbis to Musonius Rufus and the Cynics: OHJ, Elements 32 and 33 in Chapter 5; see for example Christians Did Not Invent Charity and Philanthropy and Your Own Moral Reasoning: Some Things to Consider). So P32 isn’t true. But neither is P33. To the contrary, if you wanted to push a radical teaching in antiquity it was actually more typical to invent the claim that some mythical god or hero had said it (see Chapter 10 of Not the Impossible Faith for the anthropology behind this). Case in point: Moses. To whom was falsely attributed the entirety of the Old Testament law and the oral Mishnah law. Similarly the Cargo Cults contrived fictional saviors to attribute their teachings to (OHJ, Element 29, Chapter 5). And we know for a fact some of the most radical stuff attributed to Jesus was composed by someone else decades later (e.g. the Sermon on the Mount was never composed by Jesus but some Greek-speaking Jew after the Jewish War: OHJ, pp. 465-68). So neither premise of this argument holds up.
Another argument from evidence to a general probability is the Argument from “We’d Have the Evidence”:
- P34. No one gainsaid the invention of a historical Jesus.
- P35. If no one gainsaid the invention of a historical Jesus, Jesus probably was historical.
- C14. Therefore, Jesus probably was historical.
I already address this in Chapter 8.12 of OHJ. Both premises are false.
Contrary to P34 we do have some evidence of people gainsaying the historicity of Jesus. But P34 also trades on the false assumption that we would have every comment and observation anyone in-the-know would ever have made about Jesus—but all evidence shows the survival of such evidence is in fact very unlikely (OHJ, Chapters 8.4 and 7.7). To the contrary, it is evident that all our sources had no sources by which to even know whether Jesus existed, or were the very ones inventing the claim that he did (OHJ, Chapters 7 and 8). So even if we didn’t have evidence of people gainsaying the matter (and we do), we still would not even know whether P34 were true, so we could not assert it as known. The argument therefore cannot follow.
Meanwhile, contrary to P35, Jesus appears to have been converted into a historical man after the Jewish War, an average human lifetime later, and when for all we can tell all possible witnesses one could even have consulted on the matter were dead (OHJ, Chapters 4-5, Elements 19 through 29). Moreover, it was invented in a foreign land, in a foreign language; and until centuries later, that invention was never popular in what would have been the native land and language of Jesus. So it’s entirely possible no one gainsaid this because no one could. Therefore it does not follow that if no one did, that Jesus must have existed. That doesn’t even follow as a probability. Hence we see in the case of other invented movement heroes, like John Frum and Ned Ludd, no one is on record gainsaying them either, thus proving no such thing can be presumed (for details, check those names in the subject index of OHJ).
Indeed we have no Jewish writings about Christianity until the Talmud in the Middle Ages, so we don’t know what Jews were saying to Christians early on—at all, much less in the first century. Worse, that Talmud says Jesus lived a hundred years earlier than the Gospels claim, demonstrating Christians outside the Roman Empire—where that Talmud was composed—were preaching a completely different mythical Jesus, executed by stoning around the time of the Greek occupation rather than the Roman (see Chapter 8.1 of OHJ). Meanwhile, in Greek we have nothing whatever outside the New Testament until long after the Gospels were circulating, and no evidence anyone had any other sources to check by but the Gospels. And on top of all that, as the evidence indicates, historicizing Christians were actively suppressing all sources that gainsaid the historicity of Jesus (see Chapter 7 of Jesus from Outer Space and Chapters 7.7, 8.4, and 8.12 of On the Historicity of Jesus), condemning and shunning their authors and preserving nothing they wrote, often not even in quotation or paraphrase. Thus we cannot establish P34 or P35.
By contrast to those, an example of a more common argument to a prior probability is the straightforward (and hopelessly fallacious) Argument from Consensus:
- P36. The current mainstream consensus of experts holds that Jesus existed.
- P37. Whatever the current mainstream consensus of experts holds is probably true.
- C15. Therefore, probably Jesus existed.
This is a fallacy of circular argument: it presumes the conclusion (that the consensus is correct) in the premises (that the consensus is correct). Though it is commonly the case that P37 is true, it is false precisely when the basis for that consensus is shown to be fraudulent or fallacious or refuted. It is also false precisely when sufficient evidence is presented against the consensus position. In fact all consensus positions have resulted from overthrowing a previous consensus in just such a fashion. So you cannot argue against a demonstration that a consensus is fraudulent or fallacious or refuted by re-citing the same consensus just demonstrated to be fraudulent or fallacious or refuted. The only proper response is to address those demonstrations.
In terms of prior probability, the reference class of “all consensus positions” is mostly filled with true conclusions, but the sub-class of “all consensus positions demonstrated to be fraudulent or fallacious or refuted” is mostly filled with false conclusions. So you have to actually address which reference class the consensus you are talking about is in. And you can’t do that by simply reasserting that consensus. See my articles On Evaluating Arguments from Consensus and The Difference Between a Historian and an Apologist and How to Successfully Argue Jesus Existed (or Anything Else in the World).
Another commonly disastrous argument in this vein is what I call the Argument from Spartacus (based on Spartacus being for a time the most common “example” touted: see Okay, So What about the Historicity of Spartacus?). I already diagrammed and critiqued this argument in So What About Hannibal, Then? but very briefly it goes something like this:
- P38. We should not doubt [x] existed.
- P39. The evidence for Jesus is better than for [x].
- C16. Therefore, we should not doubt Jesus existed.
The problem here is that P39 is never true. Any [x] you pick that makes P38 surely true ends up rendering P39 surely false. Which is precisely why we should doubt Jesus existed. Not the other way around. By this point we are getting into the pit of garbage arguments where historians make wildly false claims to defend Jesus; which is when we start to realize they are not defending Jesus because of any actual evidence but for some other reason having nothing to do with what is true. They are no longer acting as historians at that point; for whatever reason, they’ve become apologists. I have collected into one place all the examples of this argument (every known [x] attempted), and the evidence proving my point here from each one, in Chapter 5 of Jesus from Outer Space.
This is, BTW, the same argument as found even in far more ridiculous forms, like the Argument from the Holocaust Happened and the Argument from Evolution Is True. In no way whatever is the evidence for Jesus comparable to those things, so those arguments are just Fallacies of False Analogy on a grandly absurd scale.
Finally, one last argument to a prior I will diagram here is the Argument from “Conspiracy Theories Are Improbable” which goes something like this:
- P40. To maintain the conclusion that Jesus didn’t exist requires postulating an extremely improbable element: a vast conspiracy.
- P41. Any conclusion that requires postulating an extremely improbable element is probably false.
- C17. Therefore, that Jesus did exist is probably true (by modus tollens).
In other words, the person arguing this is claiming that even the most minimal mythicist thesis m must have a low prior probability because it requires postulating without evidence an extremely improbable conspiracy. That’s often true: if your theory requires assuming something extremely improbable, your theory is unlikely to be true. And here we must mean epistemic, not objective probability; as opposed to something objectively improbable that you prove epistemically probable with sufficient evidence (e.g. if you prove there is a conspiracy, it is no longer an improbable assumption).
P41 is still technically false, because any low prior can be overcome with comparably improbable evidence (see That Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence). But we needn’t query whether enough evidence exists to overcome that low prior. Because P40 is already false: m does not require any such conspiracy theory (as I explain in OHJ, pp. 276-77, 291, 303-05, and 609; see also the subject index, “conspiracy theories”). For example, there is ample evidence to prove Christians were actively forging and suppressing evidence (OHJ, Chapters 8.4, 8.12, and 7.7, and Element 44 in Chapter 5), so that degree of “conspiracy” (which required no actual conspiring, just a common cause and attitude) is probable, not improbable, negating P40.
Alternatively, one could reframe this as an argument from evidence: if such a conspiracy had occurred, then we should see evidence of it. Which is not an argument about priors but about the relative weight of the evidence (in this case, the absence of evidence otherwise expected). But in this form, both premises are false: we do have sufficient evidence of the only actual amount of conspiring required to make this state of the evidence 100% expected; and any greater degree of conspiring is in no way required to explain any of the evidence (see How Did Christianity Switch to a Historical Jesus? and A Vital Primer on Media Literacy).
By analogy, there was no conspiracy that transformed sticks and tinfoil near Roswell into “recovered a flying saucer and autopsied alien bodies” (OHJ, index). Nor any conspiracy that transformed spirit communications heard by shamans in telegraph poles into “a visit to our island by John Frum who gave us all our teachings” (OHJ, index). Nor that created Ned Ludd or King Arthur or Osiris or Moses or Aesop as historical persons (OHJ, index). Certainly, there were a lot of liars. The Gospels show a concerted readiness to make things up to convince people of things; and most Christian literature in its first three centuries is forged or doctored, even whole letters in the New Testament itself (OHJ, Chapters 7.7 and 8.12). But they did not have to “coordinate” their lying. Once one person makes something up (e.g. Mark inventing a Galilean Jesus), others could start believing it or pushing it as true, without having been told to by Mark or ever even having met the man.
This is even easier when any resistors there may still have been (e.g. Christian sects who refused to believe Jesus was a man in Galilee, who believed instead that that was a “cleverly devised myth,” against other Christian sects newly insisting on it being literally true) lost the struggle for power and thus weren’t the ones who got to decide which documents would be preserved or what claims allowed to be heard. Which also did not require a conspiracy: historicists would all have acted individually on their own to alter or suppress (or, as most commonly happened, simply not mention or preserve) documents they didn’t like. Historicists could well have genuinely believed the mythicists were the heretics and latecomers, even if it really was the other way around, simply because there was no way for them to know. Access to relevant records to decide the matter was nearly if not entirely absent by the time historicity was invented and sold.
As these are all proven facts, not mere assumptions or speculations, they are epistemically probable. Therefore P40 is never relevantly true.
Conclusion
None of these arguments really work. They represent increasingly desperate attempts to rescue Jesus with claims increasingly divorced from factual reality or that ignore the contrary arguments already refuting them. Everything I said by way of introduction and conclusion in my previous article thus remains intact and as relevant as ever.
Dr. Carrier stated:
“Though it is commonly the case that P37 is true, it is false precisely when the basis for that consensus is shown to be fraudulent or fallacious or refuted. It is also false precisely when sufficient evidence is presented against the consensus position. In fact all consensus positions have resulted from overthrowing a previous consensus in just such a fashion.”
Case in point: Certainly there must’ve been a consensus at some point in time that the world was flat.
True. But not particularly relevant, as “flat earth” theory was never the position of any qualified expert, much less a community of them. It was always an amateur folk belief. More relevant would be historical theories in Biblical studies, as in, actual expert consensuses, in the same field of study. For example how the consensus changed on the historicity of the Exodus.
Hi Dr. Carrier !!! I would ask some points, ‘because i didn’t read Proving History but is very hard to believe that all well train NT Scholars are 100% wrong since that P01 “can never actually be established, not even as on balance probable.”
My question is about the inverse of Argument from Founders, Variant 2, ’cause I know by for your and Price’s views on “THE Q CONTENT” not be conclusive. Like Hilel stuff and so on. But Off course this work as argument for a historical person influencied by ideias of the time man!
I really find very odd when you said in OHJ that the potential suicide Jesus in Supper would be implausible; ’cause there are many work on ‘why Jesus was crucified’ and ‘if knew that would be kill’ that are so naturalistic for be call “big stack of implausibilities.”(pp. 559, OHJ)
self-sacrifice as being atoning sacrificet:
i’m quoting Evans!
In his words death of just persons would be benefit and salvific to people of God:(all pre-christian!!!)
I Maccabees 6.44;
II Maccabees 7. 33,37-38***
VI Maccabees 1.11;17.21-22;18,3-4
Moses Testament 9-10
Ps. Philon, Bib. Ant. 18.5
Could you try answer these evidences?. In II Maccabees is really good stuff!
Taking each item separately:
Correct. Even if Q existed (and there is actually no legitimate reason to believe that), it does not establish any premise here enumerated: it was written in Greek, not Aramaic, by a scholar not a peasant, and one reliant on the Greek Septuagint and therefore not Palestinian; it therefore cannot have been composed by Jesus, and all attempts to argue it somehow derives some of its content from Jesus are hopelessly fallacious. Indeed, even hard core proponents of that theory admit almost none of Q’s content really does go back to Jesus.
I cannot understand the grammar of your last question, so I don’t know what you are asking. It sounds like you are calling attention to the fact that self-sacrifice was widely revered as heroic and magically and religiously potent. I concur and actually cite some of that same evidence making exactly that point in OHJ: Element 43, Chapter. Quote:
Many a mythical sacrifice served that very function for the savior cults Christianity emulated (Elements 45-48, Chapter 5). The OHJ thesis is that the first Christians believed the archangel Jesus became incarnate and died in a distant Satanic realm for that very reason (OHJChapter 3, and Elements 23-29, Chapter 5).
Well, I was arguing that this scenario make probable the position of a preacher had reasons “suicide” himself without the supernatural power acting…
Something that you apparently denied in OHJ (559 again). So these evidences give us support for the inverse of Founders Argument 2; that the teaching are compatible with Zietgeist time and could have being said by a preacher of this time.
If Jesus really believed his death would do something good, then of course it is “possible” a real such person existed. But we aren’t asking whether this is possible; we already agree it is possible. The question is whether this particular example is probably real or mythical. “Martyrs” as a concept long predates Christianity. There are numerous accounts, and praise of, Jewish and pagan martyrs. I discuss a possible route by which Jesus might have been trying to get himself killed, as did several other “Jesus Christs” of the same general period, in my Wichita Rapture Day talk. In OHJ I discuss these examples as well as mythical examples, of which there are again also a great many. So which is Jesus?
I don’t know what you are referring to by page 559 in OHJ. The material on that page is about Paul and things said by Paul; it’s not about any actual Jesus there may or may not have been. My material on the popularity of self-sacrificing men, with several real world historical examples (actual, not mythical, people) is in Element 43, Chapter 5, pp. 209-14. I also discuss mythical examples there (and more in Elements 31 and 46, pp. 168-73 & 222-25).
The Argument From Founders Variant 2 is not affected by any of this. None of its premises have anything to do with motives to self-sacrifice. So I can only guess that maybe you are trying to propose a Variant 3 of some kind, perhaps:
P42. The Gospels are a story about a man named Jesus who sacrificed themself.
P43. Most stories about persons who sacrifice themselves are true.
C18. Therefore, it is (probably) true that a man named Jesus sacrificed himself.
This is actually a variant of the Argument from Real People, which I already exposed the error of. So to complete the analogy:
P42. Jesus belongs to a reference class, “persons who sacrifice themselves,” whose members are all or mostly historical.
P43. People who belong to sets whose members are all or mostly historical probably existed.
C18. Therefore Jesus probably existed.
The problem is that P42 is false. Often members of that set are mostly not historical. It does not matter how many actual historical self-sacrificers there are; what matters is how many there are in the subset to which Jesus belongs. So citing real examples of self-sacrificers has no relevance to how likely it is that Jesus is real (you are thus just raising an Alternative Class Objection, to which I devote an entire section in OHJ: pp. 245-46). To know whether Jesus is a real or a mythical self-sacrificer requires referencing more data about what sort of self-sacrificer Jesus is: is he more like real ones, or more like mythical ones?
The answer, actually, is that he is more like mythical ones. As I noted for the Argument from Real People:
P29 [ergo P42] is false: it is not always the case that “persons” in such sets usually existed; it depends on what sort of “person” is being “placed” in history and how. Reference class arguments cannot ignore data. And we have much more data as to the reference class Jesus belongs to than just “the set of all persons depicted as interacting with historical figures [or as sacrificing themselves].”
If only I had 1% as much knowledge!
Question re “Outer Space”, condemning and shunning their authors and preserving nothing they wrote, often not even in’: How much purposeful destruction went on (if any), as opposed to not preserving?
We can’t answer that question because there are few preserved records of what was destroyed vs. merely left to rot. Either way, almost none of it survived. So it’s one or the other. And that’s all that matters.
For example, we have a record of deliberate efforts to destroy the Gospel of Peter as being heretical. But those records only show an effort to remove it from one sect (the one that would later dominate the world); at that time no power existed to destroy texts revered by competing sects. Those sects themselves had to be suppressed. Which imperial power was deployed to do after the Council of Nicea. Records of pogroms against “unapproved” churches after that point sometimes mention the destruction of their books, but sometimes don’t explicitly but we can infer it as that was how rival sects were wiped out. But it’s not really known for sure.
Other evidence is vague and circumstantial (e.g. I survey “mysteriously missing” material in Chapter 8 of OHJ, which collectively looks like some things were being destroyed and not merely thrown away). But even after that most cases will be a mystery, as evidence of “what happened to [x]” for any book [x] simply does not exist. Still, in the end, there is no practical difference between “we burned [x]” and “we threw [x] in the trash.” So it doesn’t really matter.
Well done, Dr. Carrier!
You have organized arguments and approach to them in a way we can apply ourselves to repeats of such false claims.
Anyone able to follow rational arguments quickly realize that, using rationally sequenced argument and weighted inference, the apologists lose.
So it’s, once more, a defeat for the Jesus apologists. But in the nature of believers is just the word “belief” and it’s ally, “faith“ still there to allow unending perpetual re-generations of their original but disproved delusions. Self-referential “proofs” always sprout from the dead trees!
In today’s world, obviously, office-holders in the Churches clearly have too much to lose in admitting to Biblical falsehoods and delusions.
But this is far beyond a Professional “Jesus” apologist problem!
Similarly, educated, (otherwise rational), key followers of the defeated Trump, spout his alternative truths. Again it requires no scholarship to realize that these are simply scoundrels who don’t want to lose their privileged lifestyles and careers, at public expense.
But why do throngs of masses fill the streets for Trump still as if he was a messiah? They argue for him about a stolen election with the faith of those who are certain of “The Risen Christ”.
Millions are convinced of a powerful malevolent “Deep State” and an imagined international “cabal” of (anti-Christian), manipulators who have, for certain, stolen the White Man’s true birthright!
Or why do followers of Joseph Smith, ardently follow a man that all accessible history and simple logic gives them enough evidence to know it’s made up nonsense
What is the survival advantage to Homo Sapiens to be to so strongly taken in by lies, to essentially become separated from us and essentially “speciated” by memes, for which they would now fight for to the death?
For Christians, Muslims and Buddhists and these modern delusional political fascistic masses, the “believers“, faced with facts, assume there are even stronger buried facts to be discovered, as it’s “obvious” that all attacks on them, are themselves driven by coveting and dishonesty!
So we are left with the herd of buffalo defeating the lion by simply stampeding over them?
Is that only where we are, despite the “logos”, the logic and academic scholarship of 20,000 Years of sign-making, writing and intelligent speech?
Asher
If your question is “Why are human brains so susceptible to groupthink instead of independent epistemic reasoning,” that’s well known:
We did not evolve to manage complex civilizations with advanced systematic knowledge. We evolved to live in small tribes in the wild, competent at craft knowledge but little else, whose social cohesion was more important (and easier to obtain) than what we call abstract categorical hypothetical reasoning, much less advanced formal techniques of critical reasoning (all of which are late cultural inventions, tools specifically made to override the biological failures of the brain, and never themselves an innate biological feature of the brain).
In short, people believe these things because people are savages, only pretending at being a sophisticated civilized species. It takes work—a lot of concentrated work—to get your brain to operate above that of a savage. Few succeed at it. The default in its place is to simply “follow” whatever “tribal culture” you deem to be “yours” for whatever reason, and then “hope” that will pay off. Because that is how we savages evolved to operate.
Evolution is not a genius or a saint. It is itself a savage idiot. It could not make us into rational people; it is wholly incapable of that, and wouldn’t care to even if it had anything like actual motives. We have to use the dim tools evolution did give us, to dig and climb our way out of the pit of idiocy evolution left us in. But we can’t do that if we don’t even try; and we won’t even try if no one even tells us how, or that it even should or can be done.
Which is an elaborate way of saying the only salvation for us is to build, fund, and deploy a far better education system and far more serious epistemic culture. That’s the only way forward; the only way to have a civilization not dominated by delusional savages.
More on these points in:
The Clash sang two great lines of protest against groupthink in their song “Death or Glory” on the London Calling album:
“I believe in this and it’s been tested by research,
He who f*cks nuns is gonna join the church.”
What about the argument from Jesus’ last days? Especially the reaction of Pontius Pilate, who did not find Jesus to be guilty of anything, whereas the religious Jews found him to be very much guilty, is so realistic. That is not something on oral tradition will invent. So I am referring to the idea that the claim Jesus was a king or a messiah, was something that must have happened historically. I do agree with the mythical character of many aspects of Jesus, but not these last days in Jerusalem.
You might need to explain more (or cite a peer reviewed presentation of whatever argument you are referring to?). Because at just that description I don’t see an argument any scholar would make.
It is generally agreed across all mainstream scholarship that the Gospels’ depiction of Pilate’s legal treatment of Jesus is unrealistic and was a fabrication to whitewash any actual crimes of Jesus and appease the Romans by apologetically depicting them as the good guys (Acts then carries this theme to the hilt). So that wouldn’t have any bearing on the myth/history debate.
As to Jesus being “assigned” the title of king, that is exactly what scripture required, and the irony the mythographers wanted to invent, so there was no need of any historical basis for it.
For example, the Talmud dealing with the Eastern Christian teaching that Jesus was executed a hundred years earlier has his crime stated as blasphemy, and never mention claiming the title of king as the basis for his execution (and Jewish law would have not applied to any such crime; our Gospels only ever show Jesus being tried for blasphemy). That version of the myth had Jesus be an actual living royal claimant arising at exactly the time of the death of the last Jewish king (Jannaeus). Which means mythographers could handle the motif in any number of different ways.
There actually wasn’t any reason even for Romans to execute some lunatic claiming to be a king. Only if his claims had political merit (e.g. he was amassing an army, or attempting to; actual financiers among the elite were backing his claim; etc.) would he be executed for sedition. But even then his cross titulature would not declare him a king (as the Gospels depict), but state his crime as sedition or rebellion. Notably the Gospels have the other guy, Barabbas, guilty of that, and yet released (a completely fictional, unrealistic event), to communicate how the Jews chose rebellion over their “real” king that “even” Rome had acknowledged as such. This is impressive literary irony, but not something Pilate would ever have done. No such “title” would have been placed on Jesus’s cross, and no rebel would have been set free like that; yet both together create a perfect “story” for a Christian to tell. Which indicates it’s false. Not the other way around.
For more on how totally unrealistic “the last days of Jesus” are see my discussion of the criterion of crucifixion in Proving History (see the index) and Chapter 10.4 in On the Historicity of Jesus, which covers the mythography of Mark, the inventor of all of this (not a single bit of which appears in Paul, 1 Clement, 1 Peter, or Hebrews, all the texts that do or could plausibly predate Mark; and all subsequent iterations of which are adaptations of Mark, leaving no known independent source: it all just goes back to Mark, and redactions of Mark).
Hello Dr. Carrier. About the “privilegium Paschale” (the practice of releasing criminals in Passover), Evans and Wright mentioned a few sources in their book “Jesus, the Final Days”, page 21
https://books.google.com.pe/books?id=Q12p2RgwWUYC&q=pilate&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Besides%2C%20there%20are%20other%20accounts%20of%20Roman%20and%20other%20officials%20releasing%20prisoners%20on%20occasion%20of%20special%20days&f=false
Dou you think that that sources really support the existence of a privilegium Paschale?
No. Because their examples are impertinent. (As is typical for Christian apologists.)
That sometimes prisoners were pardoned is not the issue. The issue is “Was there a regular release of any prisoner the populace asked for in Pilate’s Judea,” ever, but especially indeed on the Jewish holiday of Passover, and the answer is not only “No,” but that that wasn’t even possible.
No such traditions existed, nor could have in that environment; precisely because it would have the effect described: setting murderous rebel leaders free. No Roman governor would ever submit to such a tradition. And no record of any such tradition exists, nor anything like it. Whereas the scene described exactly matches the Jewish Atonement ritual of Levitucus, in a story about Jewish Atonement ideology. So it’s obviously myth. Not history.
p31
With so many marys –
wouldn’t a good writer give caractars different names lest confusion arise in the narrative?
–
Meeting jesus: does Jesus Bar Abbas count?
(ie Jesus son of the Father – meaning Jesus junior?)
(1) In real history, confusion is allayed by not relying on one’s common name. Patronymics or toponymics are added, usually, and a discussion of relationships locating the person within a social network. The Gospels are mostly just interested in the symbolism of the name. These people didn’t really exist anyway. There are only Marys in the Gospels because that’s the sister of Moses; so anyone so named is meant to carry the symbolic pregnancy of the sister of Moses as a type and a representative of an idea. I discuss exactly how Mark does this with the Marys he includes in Chapter 11 of Not the Impossible Faith.
(2) Indeed, in some manuscripts of the Gospels Barabbas is indeed fully named Jesus (i.e. Joshua) Barabbas. But even when he’s not, he is still intended to be the twin agent of Jesus, as two “Sons of the Father” (Bar Abbas = “Son of Father”) to emulate the Yom Kippur: two “identical” goats would be taken and one sacrificed whose blood atones for all Israel, the other who literally carries the sins of Israel (most prominently in this myth: murder and rebellion) is then released into the wilderness (in this case, of the masses). So we have two Jesus Sons of the Father in this story, one is the scapegoat, the other the atonement sacrifice, and one’s fate is decided by which you choose (the scapegoat falls eventually to its death in its sins, the other produces universal salvation; one supports violence and insurrection, the other pacifism and obedience). I discuss this, and the ancient evidence and modern peer reviewed scholarship proving it, in On the Historicity of Jesus (index, “Barabbas”).
Hi Richard,
I found an article on Bart Ehrman’s blog responding to you and claiming that Paul couldn’t have meant that James was Jesus’ brother in a spiritual sense as Paul uses the term “brother” to differentiate James from Cephas; and since both Cephas and James were Jesus’ brothers in the spiritual sense, the differentiator would be that term “brother” indicates a biological relationship between James and Jesus.
Bart also claims that your response to this is that Paul uses the term “brother” to apply to someone who was a baptized Christian but not at the same time an apostle, like Cephas, so Paul uses the term “brother” to differentiate between Cephas and James this way.
Is this an an accurate representation of your position?
That is my position, yes, and I already refuted his position ages ago. See Ehrman and James the Brother of the Lord.
Note in general that you can always find these things yourself using my continually-updated index: Ehrman on Historicity Recap (in which this is Item 9). I also have an index by author for cases other than Ehrman: List of Responses to Defenders of the Historicity of Jesus.
I came across some more information on the name argument. In this article you pointed out a lack of statistical analysis by Bauckham. Kamil Gregor and Brian Blais have a paper that came out pretty recently called “Is Name Popularity a Good Test of Historicity? A Statistical Evaluation of Richard Bauckham’s Onomastic Argument”.
https://brill.com/view/journals/jshj/21/3/article-p171_002.xml
They argue Bauckham’s analysis is flawed from a statistical perspective.
They talk about their results more here:
I then came across this more recent response to them where it’s claimed that their results are flawed:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2403.14883
I am not an expert with statistics, but since you mentioned statistics in this article, I figured you would want to know about these.
Indeed, I discuss the Gregor-Blais paper in my new book. Thank you for referencing it in here.
I cannot tell what peer-reviewed journal that response paper is being considered at, though; and it doesn’t appear to have passed and been published in any form yet, so I can’t really justify citing it. But do make sure Gregor and Blais are aware of it so they can produce their own response, because that is what we need to hear foremost.
At a glance, it looks apologetical rather than serious (e.g. it picks at irrelevancies and produces no different result by any valid method I can discern). It is possible to prove Gregor-Blais without the statistics, the deviations from average expectancy are so extreme, e.g. look at the bizarrely low distribution of contemporaries named Jesus (Joshua) in the data-set, and even Eleazar (Lazarus) despite that being a more common name then than Jesus. There is literally only one such character across all the Gospels and Acts, and only one instance of Jesus in Palestine (these critics gloss over the fact that the second Jesus is only encountered in a distant foreign land). One of Gregor and Blais’s points is that with instantiation rates so low (single cases), it is farcical to claim the name frequencies match expectation within a margin of error, because that margin would then have to include zero, meaning their position is impossible to falsify and is thus meaningless. They don’t seem to be answering the point.
Indeed, their own graph (on page 3) you can see Josephus hews closely to expectancy, while the Bible is wildly divergent. That graph also does not check rare name frequency, which is also wildly off in the Bible, indeed in both ways possible: there are far fewer rare names than their should be, and the rare names that there are are fake names, with expected natural frequencies in Palestine of zero. For example, there are zero Timaeus’s or Nicodemus’s in the Ilan database; and these appear only once in the Biblical narrative. So fake names appear as often as the common name Jesus itself! That does not suggest congruence with history. Nor does the fact that there should be many more rare names (not zero-frequency names), and there aren’t. So the pattern matches fiction, not history.
I do not see a response to points like this in their paper, just an attempt to hide them behind implausible metrics and assertions. But it would be more useful for Grego and Blais to reply. Please let them know. If you see they do at any point, please let me know!