Creationists aren’t just operating on a misunderstanding and ignorance of the science (often wilful); they are also operating on broken epistemologies. The case of biogenesis affords us an illustration. I’ve written many articles on this. For example, in Oh No! Biogenesis Is Impossible?? A Case Study in Creationist Lies I document Jerry Bergman’s catastrophic ignorance and recourse to outright lying in his attempt to dissuade the public from believing actual scientific facts. But I also included one section on his broken methodology. Although given his documented dishonesty, he might well know it’s broken and is just hoping readers don’t notice; but recently I encountered a creationist who seems to sincerely not know this methodology is broken. Time to educate.
In response to Bergman I made the crucial point that “having more than one evidence-based theory of how something could have come to be increases the probability that it came to be by one of those methods; it does not decrease that probability.” And accordingly, “the more natural-cause theories we have that have been shown to be plausible on a basis of evidence, the more likely it is that a natural cause is responsible,” whereas “in any competition between a theory supported by evidence and precedent and a theory supported by none, the former is always more likely.” And “these two principles are not arbitrary assertions, but mathematical certitudes.” I demonstrate that there, so I won’t repeat it here, but merely summarize: vast evidence establishes naturalist theories tend to be true and theist theories never are (Naturalism Is Not an Axiom of the Sciences but a Conclusion of Them), therefore all else being equal, “god did it” is always the least likely explanation of anything (especially given The Argument from Specified Complexity against Supernaturalism). And when we have numerous theories each of which fully explain an observation, and all of which fully follow from and cohere with all empirically established scientific facts to date, there can be no logically valid argument that god must have done it instead. The evidence establishes that that is almost certainly not the case. Even when we don’t know which of those many competing theories is true. Just as with UFO’s: we don’t need to be able to prove which specific explanation of them happened in any given case; because we already know, on a basis of accumulated evidence, that any number of explanations are vastly more likely than “aliens did it” (UFOs Are Not That Remarkable).
If there are a dozen theories, all cohering with and following from the empirical facts, each of which rendering the observation that biogenesis occurred on the early Earth probable, then it is an actual fact of the matter that we know from empirical evidence that a natural biogenesis probably occurred on Earth. We therefore have no need of any other explanation. The question of which specific way biogenesis historically occurred on Earth remains an interesting question; but we no longer need look for any other theory than natural ones. If there are, let’s say, twelve competing naturalist hypotheses, all plausible, then the fact that biogenesis is a natural occurrence is simply P(H1) + P(H2) + P(H3) + P(H4) + P(H5) + P(H6) + P(H7) + P(H8) + P(H9) + P(H10) + P(H11) + P(H12) + P(H*) = ~100% (where the ~ symbol here indicates approximation and H* indicates “any other possible hypothesis”). Consequently, having so many theories substantially increases, not decreases, the probability some natural explanation is true. And we know that sum probability is very near 100% because the historical success of naturalistic explanation (in contrast with the exactly converse historical failure of supernatural explanation), and given that each of those theories make the appearance of life an expected outcome, and all match extant evidence (none are ruled out by it). There is therefore simply no logical case to make that “god did it” needs to be included in the theories we are exploring. And that’s that.
Q Doesn’t Get It
An anonymous creationist using the moniker “Q” attempted to deny this in response to my article The Latest Proposal for a Probability of Abiogenesis (in a comments thread beginning here). I do not know their gender but unless corrected I will here operate from the statistical assumption they’re a man (in my experience, creationists who dispute with people online with this particular kind of sustained stubbornness tend to be). He begins with the opening line, “The lack of an empirically verified naturalistic explanation for the origin of life remains problematic for metaphysical naturalism.” In that single sentence he betrays his broken epistemology. The conclusion is a non sequitur. He falsely presumes we have to know exactly what happened on the early Earth to give rise to life (which of a dozen or so different scenarios), in order to know that, whatever it was, it was probably a natural event (one of those dozen or so different scenarios, or any other comparable). That’s illogical. Just as we can empirically prove someone was murdered without knowing exactly who murdered them (or even how), we can empirically prove biogenesis was a natural event without knowing exactly which pathway nature took to get there. As long as we have several explanations in total agreement with science which posit nothing we have not already empirically proved possible or likely on the early Earth, and all those explanations are natural-cause explanations, then we know for an empirical fact that biogenesis was probably a natural event. End of story.
Hence there is no “problem” for metaphysical naturalism here. As I explained to Q, we have several naturalistic explanations for the origin of life, all match known science and available evidence. Q is confusing that, with knowing which one is true. But we don’t need to know which one is true. Because we already know there are a dozen, any one of which can be true. Those explanations all completely fit the evidence and known science, and do so vastly better than any made-up supernatural nonsense: as I demonstrated in Bayesian Counter-Apologetics, “the only way we could exist without a God is by an extremely long process of evolution by natural selection, beginning from a single molecule, through hundreds of millions of years of single cells, through hundreds of millions of years of cooperating cells, to hundreds of millions of years of multicellular organisms,” therefore naturalism “predicts essentially that” whereas “theism does not.” The evidence matches that prediction, and thus confirms that biogenesis was far more likely a natural event rather than a supernatural one.
Creationists like Q will want to claim that we should go against all this evidence “because” we lack any explanation for how biogenesis could be a natural event. But that’s false. Not only do we not lack an explanation, we have a dozen or more explanations. That’s exactly the opposite of having no explanation. So that argument is blocked. So then they try to say that because we only have models—we haven’t yet reproduced any in the lab (because we can’t; the durations of time needed are not available to us)—this means they “can’t” be true. But that’s a non sequitur. As long as those models are fully in conformity with the evidence (and all the findings of the sciences to date) and have some specific evidence in their support, and match peculiar predictions (like the bizarre age and size and material scope of the universe and the oddly long and meandering history of life on Earth from molecules to plants and animals), they have a far higher probability of being true than theories for which we have no evidence whatever and that go against all past findings of the sciences and fail to match any predictions about life and the cosmos. Having a lot of evidence always makes a theory more probable by far than having none; so it does not matter whether we could have a great deal more evidence still. The conclusion is already reached by that point: whatever caused life to emerge on the early Earth, it was almost certainly some natural cause.
Desperate and on the ropes now, a creationist like Q will try then to move the goal posts, and admit, okay, yes, we do have explanations and that we “lack” one was a mistaken assertions, “but” our explanations are all just speculations, and therefore not “evidence” of the point. But now Q has fallen into a pit as rife with fallacies as the Well of the Souls was rife with asps. First, none of these theories is “just speculation.” Every single one rests on a vast body of empirical scientific evidence establishing they would work given the conditions: with the right environments plus enough time, a natural biogenesis is ~100% expected. Not a speculation. Fact. No such case can be made for the “god did it” hypothesis. And that leaves only the question of how probable it is that there are enough environs and time in the universe to ensure at least one of those methods would produce life somewhere in the universe to a probability near enough to 100% to be assured. And vast empirical and scientific evidence establishes the answer is that there is: there are so many planets and moons, and the conditions required on them are so readily produced in nature, that that probability is indeed as expected. Which is itself a confirmation: why else would the universe and the history of life be so unusually like that, unless life arose just as we suspect?
Hence as I said to Q, “In the same way, we don’t need to know which horse Caesar rode when he crossed the Rubicon. We have enough evidence to know he crossed the Rubicon, and probably on a horse. The fact that we don’t know which horse does not warrant concluding he therefore was carried across on a flight of angels.” It was probably a horse. End of story. Indeed, that it was even a llama rather than a horse is still vastly more probable than a flight of angels. For llamas and the means to transport them to another continent have been empirically proven to exist and function as required. So the fact that it almost certainly wasn’t a llama tells us the probability that it was angels is as near to zero as makes all odds. We don’t even have to consider it. By the same reasoning, the probability life originated on Earth by natural process equals the total probability of natural biogenesis occurring anywhere in the universe in conditions relevantly similar to the early Earth’s. Just as, if I won the lottery, you can’t claim I didn’t win because winning lotteries is improbable, because lotteries are routinely won, and I’m as likely to be the winner as anyone else who played; therefore you would need evidence against my likely being the winner (evidence, for example, that I’m lying about that, or mistaken somehow) before you could rationally conclude otherwise. And there is no evidence against natural biogenesis on Earth. So that rhetorical strategy is forestalled.
So when Q ignored all this and insisted instead that “proponents of abiogenesis have yet to even demonstrate empirically that abiogenesis can happen” (we have abundantly proved empirically that it can) “and that it has happened” (there is abundant empirical evidence that it did) and therefore it’s only “an empirically unverified working assumption,” he appears not to understand what “evidence” is or how it works to increase the epistemic probability of a conclusion. So what we have here is a broken epistemology. The conclusion that any of a dozen or so ways life can arise by natural chance accident “can” have occurred on the early Earth is not a “working assumption,” as if we just insist upon it on a basis of no evidence. We have considerable empirical scientific evidence that these pathways could work; this is a conclusion based on evidence, which is the opposite of an assumption. If it were an assumption, we wouldn’t have all that evidence these theories are argued from. But we do. And that’s why they are declared plausible theories. This is the opposite of a “working assumption.” Meanwhile, the evidence that one of these pathways did occur on Earth is similarly strong: vast evidence establishes life did originate with a single molecule, and had to evolve over billions of years into multi-celled life-forms; and vast evidence establishes that the conditions required for each of the dozen or so possible ways it could have so originated actually did exist on the early Earth, or too easily could have to rule them out. We do not “assume” any of this. These conclusions all derive from a considerable amount of evidence.
By contrast, “god did it,” rests on no evidence whatever. That is what a mere “working assumption” looks like; indeed, worse, as it contradicts all this evidence. “God did it” does not of itself predict the observation that life would begin with a single molecule and take billions of years to even figure out how to assemble into more complex life (and still take hundreds of millions of years more to figure out how to make people). Whereas natural biogenesis predicts exactly that. And does so by pathways empirically proven to exist in the known universe, and empirically proven to exist on the early Earth. Only some theories depend on elements proven only to be possible on the early Earth, but even that evidentially exceeds a mere assumption, and many theories don’t even require this step. We therefore have many well-evidenced theories; the theist, does not. The evidence looks exactly like it would have to look if God was not involved. The laws of evidence entail the conclusion must then be that God was not involved. The only way to reverse that conclusion is to produce evidence that (a) God exists and (b) desired to create life in precisely exactly the way that looks like it wasn’t created by God and (c) did so. Theists can present no evidence for any one of those assumptions. And the cumulative evidence against (a) is, honestly, already insurmountable (see the whole of Bayesian Counter-Apologetics). It is all this evidence for natural biogenesis, and the complete lack of evidence for any god as a cause of anything (much less one who’d act so strangely as this, much less did), that remains problematic for theism. Not the other way around.
Q Is Bad at Math
Understanding the significance (the empirical and logical consequence) of evidence requires understanding mathematics, at least to a sixth grade level (in the American system). For example, Q kept insisting that “the 1 in 10^41 odds you give is for (‘toy model’) assembly of a single, self-replicating molecule, NOT for the origin of life,” even after having been told why that’s not the case. Only two things need occur for biogenesis: (1) the right molecular linking of amino acids, (2) in the right environment (an environment conducive to rather than hostile to that chain forming, metabolizing, and reproducing). Of course this is assuming that’s the only way life can arise; others might be possible, but I’m setting that aside in the present case because I think it would be too complicated for Q to grasp. He has already shown he does not understand how evidence works or how probability works; he therefore is incapable of understanding how the potential availability of other bases of evolved life than amino acids is not an assumption but, once again, based on evidence, and the consequence of which is an increase (not a decrease) in the probability of natural biogenesis on Earth. He also does not appear to understand degrees of evidence. The evidence for natural amino-acid-based molecule-chaining being a likely event on the early Earth is enormously greater than the evidence for the potentiality of life arising in this universe from other molecules; yet there is evidence for the latter. Degrees of evidence alter only degrees of certainty. And yet the evidence for other molecular bases being available is quite strong—strong enough to be confident it’s true. Ergo the evidence for natural amino-acid-based molecule-chaining being a likely event on the early Earth, being so much greater, produces an equivalently greater confidence. Whereas nothing the like exists for “god did it.” That’s how evidence works. Anyone who does not understand any of this, cannot comprehend anything about this matter. But let’s pretend that’s not the case and assume only amino-acid chaining can generate life, and that any creationist we are talking to actually understands how evidence and probability work (I know that’s a tall order).
As I replied to Q, “I have said over and over again that the remaining components” required for biogenesis (which all relate to defining the environment the right molecule chain must arise in) “have a probability of coordination in the cosmos of essentially 100% and therefore do not affect” the probability of biogenesis. In other words, when we “add in” the need to account for the second component (environment), even if there was only one chance at it in the entire history and expanse of the cosmos, “the probability of biogenesis is [still] (1 in 10^41) x (~1), which is as near to (1 in 10^41) as makes all odds.” Therefore none of the other components required for biogenesis have any significant effect on that probability. That’s why the assembly of the chain is the only relevant probability scientists bother looking at (see Why Life Must Be Complex (and Thus Probably Won’t Be on Mars)). All the other components (the conducive environs) have been established (and established on a basis of evidence) to already happen with abundant expected regularity across the universe (as even demonstrated in Rare Earth despite that book being obsolete now; empirical discoveries since have even further shored up its point). To get a better estimate than just that 1 in 10^41, all we need estimate is how much total “environment” there is in the universe (in both chemical volume and duration of existence), and how many other ways life can arise in such an environment, accounting for both of which vastly increases the probability above 1 in 10^41. Not the other way around. And conservative, evidence-based estimates exist for these things (see Could Be a 38% Chance We Are the Only Civilization in the Known Universe and, again, The Latest Proposal for a Probability of Abiogenesis). Not assumptions; conclusions from evidence. An assumption would be to make up numbers on a basis of no evidence. Instead, estimates based on what conservatively follows from actual evidence (the quantities that have to at least exist given present evidence, lest we have to invent some new arbitrary facts to explain otherwise) are not “assumptions.” Yes, they aren’t necessarily a conclusively proven fact (like the existence of, say, the Higgs boson, proved to a probability around 99.999%). But we don’t need that scale of certainty to be assured of something. Anything approximating 100% is good enough a basis on which to be confident (many sciences settle on 95%; I prefer at least 99%; but philosophically even just 90% is enough to rule out less probable alternatives like gods).
This is why Q doesn’t understand the irrelevance of his claim that “a single self-replicating molecule is neither living, nor sufficient in itself to originate (or evolve) life.” That statement is also false. In the context of biogenesis, self-replication is the definition of life (as that entails metabolism, and every other component associated with life—like “growth and functional activity”—is an evolved, not originating, feature of life). But it’s also a non sequitur. Because no one is claiming the chain itself is “sufficient,” as if the requisite molecular chain arising in the vacuum of intergalactic space is something we are counting as biogenesis. It is not. We full well know (and all our theories and calculations of probability assume and take into account) that the molecule must arise in an appropriate environment. But the probability that such environments exist is already known on abundant evidence to be (for all intents and purposes) 100%. We therefore don’t have to account for it’s existing. That’s why the only probability we talk about is of the chain occurring. That’s the only thing left to explain. And even then, in actual fact, when we calculate that probability we are taking into account the need of conducive environments, and thus include conservative evidence-based estimates of how many opportunities there have been for it to occur: we know as a matter of empirical fact that there was not “only one chance at it in the entire history and expanse of the cosmos,” but quite a lot of chances; because the universe is vast. So the total probability must take that into account. But we are not including instances of this occurring on the Moon or the Sun or in the vacuum of space or even almost anywhere on Earth; we only count potential places (limited volumes of space) even on Earth (as well as every other moon and planet possible) as relevant for the summation of odds.
Confusing Biogenesis with Evolution
A very common creationist mistake is to keep falling into confusion between biogenesis and evolution. Even after the difference is explained to them and they seem for a while to get it, they keep falling back into the same confusion. And this is a crucial mistake. Because the two scenarios involve completely different math. The arising of the first self-replicating molecule—the protobiont—in a godless universe is necessarily a product of chance accident, a straight probability calculation of the right molecules linking together in the right order from random mixing in a chemically active volume. That’s why it can be figured from a straight odds of a sequence (e.g. the self-replicating Lee peptide, which scientifically could have evolved into the entire present biome, has a one-off probability of random assembly of 1 in 10^41) measured against a number of trials (how many times the “parts” that already exist in nature have been mixed in ways that could produce the requisite molecule chain). For example, if the required naturally-occurring molecules (glycine-backed peptides in the case of PNA-first scenarios; nucleotides in the case of the RNA-first scenarios, per Michael Marshall’s summary for New Scientist) only ever existed in a suitable environment in a quantity, across the entire universe and billions of years, to make one Lee peptide, and only chained together at random a single time, then the probability of natural biogenesis via the Lee peptide would be, simply, 1 in 10^41. And of natural biogenesis generally, it would be that probability, P(Lee), + P(any other PNA origin) + P(any TNA origin) + P(any ANA origin) + P(any RNA origin) + P(any other origin), which is logically necessarily a sum more probable than P(Lee) alone, and vastly more than P(God). Creationist William Dembski has shown that events of an improbability as high as 1 in 10^150 can be expected to occur by accident in the known universe (that’s how huge and old and full of stuff this universe is; which is itself evidence that just such a natural biogenesis is what happened). This means events as unlikely as 1 in 10^41 will have occurred by random accident in this universe over 10^109 times. That’s a one followed by one hundred and nine zeroes. Yeah. That’s what we call effectively 100% certain to have occurred.
So we’re done, really. I could drop the mic here. Even if a tiny collection of peptides came together in a suitable environ only once ever, across all trillions of galaxies after billions of years, and chained only once, the probability that something this unlikely has happened somewhere in the universe by now is essentially 100%. Something of the like is guaranteed to have happened. Why, then, do we need any other explanation? But this isn’t the going argument for natural biogenesis. Because this is still assuming we’re quite lucky, that of all the events that improbable (many of which will not be this event, and thus won’t have originated life), one of them happened to be this one (thereby originating life). There is already enough evidence to support the conclusion that that happened (it can readily happen by chance accident in a universe this large and old, and so the fact that we observe ourselves to be in just such an unusually large and old universe is evidence we are indeed that chance accident). But when scientists calculate the probability of biogenesis, they are making a far stronger point: that, on existing evidence, we can be confident that the natural occurrence of PNA or RNA components is probably so large as to alone render an event as improbable as 1 in 10^41 to have occurred many times, and thus we’re not even lucky. Life is an inevitable product of this universe (albeit rare, hence Rare Earth).
To illustrate the distinction, think of poker. While the odds of drawing a royal flush if poker is only ever played one time in the entirety of history may be remarkably low, it will still remain well within the range of random accidents that can be expected to occur, even just on Earth, much less across all known space and time. With six billion people living lives of over half a century apiece, events in people’s lives the odds against which are nearly three million to one will happen thousands of times across the planet, even if each one of them is an entirely unique event. Therefore, such an event would be impressively lucky, but would not signify any intelligent design had it happened. Whereas, the odds of drawing a royal flush once across ten million games of poker is ~100% all on its own and is therefore not even remarkable. So if we observe a royal flush appearing and ten million games of poker played, we definitely need no further explanation but natural chance. That observation is simply ~100% guaranteed. So…do we have evidence that there were enough “games played” for life to be like that? Yes.
Totani conservatively estimated on existing evidence that we can expect there to have been formed in the early history of the Earth at least 10^25 nucleotides in the requisite environs (which we know, on a basis of evidence, can happen: Biscans 2018; Cafferty et al. 2016), which is one thousandth the number of nucleobases, 10^27, that we can already expect there were (a fact of which we are even more certain). He’s thus assuming a very rare formation of nucleotides even in the presence of abundant nucleobases. And this is over the whole Earth over the course of hundreds of millions of years (and then, iterated across the entire universe and billions of years). From this he estimates, counting all comparable planets and moons with suitable environs abundant evidence entails for the known universe, the probability of a self-replicating chain of RNA (which we know exist: Tews & Meyers 2017, Robertson & Joyce 2014, Lincoln et al. 2009, etc.) arising in those environs somewhere in the universe. In actual fact it’s more likely RNA is an evolved structure, and that life originated with a simpler molecule like PNA, which is more robust and far easier to assemble in nature (Singhal et al. 2014). Simple self-replicating PNA strands are an established fact (the Lee peptide being just one of them; we now have the Plöger-Kiedrowski peptide, the Singhal-Nielsen peptide, and so on). Indeed PNA automatically assembles in the expected conditions (Leman et al., “Dynamic Chemical Assembly of Peptide Nucleic Acids” in XVIIIth International Conference on Origin of Life 2017; and Rodriguez et al., “Nitrogen Heterocycles in Miller-Urey Spark-Discharge Mixtures: Using Chemical Trends to Elucidate Plausible pre-RNAs on the Early Earth”; and now Liu et al. 2020, Frenkel-Pinter et al. 2020 and Scognamiglio et al. 2021). So the probability of natural biogenesis is very much higher than even Totani calculates. All based on evidence.
Mathematically, all one needs for the probability of even just a Lee petide biogenesis happening even just once in the known universe is for there to have been 10^43 PNA molecules across the cosmos mixing randomly in the right environments. Not all in one place, but across all space and time. Scattered experimental pools of chemical reactions can span trillions of galaxies and billions of years; the outcome probability remains the same. Just as lotteries are routinely won, even though millions of people are playing and almost all of them lose. A factor of 10^43 is 100-times more than the 10^41 odds against a spontaneous Lee peptide formation, thus accounting for the dozens of PNA molecules needed to form that specific chain (which is less than forty monomers long) while ensuring a near 100% occurrence (in the same way millions of poker games ensure someone somewhere will draw a royal flush). If we scattered this requisite material among environs spanning one trillion galaxies housing just one million suitable environs apiece (despite hundreds of billions of moons and planets per galaxy) and over only one billion years (there actually have been many billions of years), and assume only one chance assembly per year (an enormous under-estimate of the way chemical reactions work), the average supply of PNA we’d need to find per select environ is 10^16, vastly less than Totani’s estimate of 10^25 nucleotides, despite nucleotides necessarily being much rarer than nucleopeptides. That’s a difference of 10^9, or one billion. In other words, we can assume Totani overcounted by at least a billion times, and still get an inevitable Lee peptide, in a suitable environ for its forming and evolving, somewhere in the universe. And evidence establishes such environs unquestionably existed on the early Earth (an unlikely coincidence on any other theory but this, or others like it). And that’s just one self-replicating PNA molecule; we know there are others, as well as countless self-replicating RNA molecules; and likely even other molecular bases for life entirely. And we also know, on a basis of abundant evidence, that more material and environs are likely to exist than these conservative estimates have it. So the actual probability will be many orders of magnitude higher still. We have no such evidence for “god did it.”
Understanding the Mathematics
Q attempted to take me to task for saying Totani’s “only [Class] 5 error is ignoring pre-RNA worlds and over-estimating even the minimum RNA size based on some faulty logic.” A Class 5 error, I established under peer review, is “Begging the size of the protobiont,” as in, “not deriving a sound evidence-based estimate for how small (i.e. how structurally simple) a self-replicating molecule can be.” Q insists “Totani’s article is very speculative and rife with uncertainties, as many theoretical works are” and “there’s nothing wrong with that.” But I didn’t say there was. To the contrary, I support Totani’s article and work and results. My critique was actually reinforcing his conclusions by showing how his inputs are too conservative. Q seems not to understand this. The only problem I find in Totani’s study is that his results are calculated for a larger (and thus less probable) self-replicator than we already know exists. Know exists; not speculate exists. If we were to redo Totani’s analysis using the actual empirical evidence we have of the simplest (and thus most probable) protobiont, his calculation would indicate a far higher probability of biogenesis than even he estimates. And this is a fact. Not a speculation.
Q wants to disingenuously defend Totani against that point with the fallacious argument that “you can’t fault research for being no more or less than what it purports to be,” but actually, you can. If a study purports to determine the probability of biogenesis, and leaves out (even by admission) facts affecting that probability, that is a fault—and indeed, one that must be pointed out to anyone who does want to know what the probability of biogenesis is. I then reincorporate what Totani left out and show the effect of that on his conclusion: it increases the probability of biogenesis. His conclusion is therefore even more evidentially supported a fortiori. Q seems instead to have mistaken me saying Totani “speculated” that the smallest self-replicating RNA molecule “could not be smaller” than 40-60 nucleotides, as my saying Totani speculated that the smallest self-replicating RNA “could be as small as” 40-60 nucleotides. To the contrary, what I said was “speculating” was that that was the minimum; i.e. that there can’t be smaller ones. That there can be self-replicating molecules as simple as 40-60 nucleotides was actually empirically demonstrated in the papers Totani cites (Szostak 1993; Robertson & Joyce 2012); they show that countless functional RNA sequences exist in that range and that it is statistically inevitable many will be recursive (once RNA is performing functional operations, that’s just one kind of basic molecular function among them; those cited studies even discuss empirically the structures required). Rather, Totani’s “mistake” is in assuming the studies he cites prove the minimum size of self-replicating molecules. In fact they only prove that there can be self-replicating molecules that small; not that there aren’t smaller ones. The Lee peptide already empirically proves there are, and if that’s the case for PNA, it’s more likely the case for RNA, too, because it has a more reliable and efficient functionality (that’s why all life is now based on using it). Thus evidence establishes Totani’s estimated probability is far too low. Q is therefore missing the evidence for the trees here: we actually have evidence of smaller self-replicators—not a speculation; fact. Ergo Totani is grossly under-estimating the probability of natural biogenesis.
Another error Totani makes having the same effect relates to a different problem. Totani mentions that we have already discovered actual self-replicating RNA sequences between 100 and 150 nucleotides (Wachowiusa & Holliger 2019; Horning & Joyce 2016); but these have been shown to self-assemble in natural conducive environments from smaller sequences. So they did not have to arrive purely at random as Totani assumes; a common mistake I identified under peer review as a Class VII error, and discuss in my analysis of Totani: evidence (not speculation) proves that some aspects of the first protobiont don’t require purely random assembly, but assemble automatically, with a probability in the described environments of effectively 100%. No one has yet run the complete calculation to determine their total probability of random assembly; and these were single molecules essentially picked at random; which means countless other self-replicating RNA molecules must exist in the same range, so even their probability of spontaneous assembly is not the probability that any such molecule will thus assemble. The latter probability is far higher; a mathematical point Q never seems to grasp. It’s that same math he keeps stumbling on: the probability of a lottery being won is not the probability that one specific person will win, but the probability any person will win, which approaches 100% as the number of players increases. And evidence establishes the number of players here (the number of possible “winning numbers” in the lottery) is high.
Even if we were to estimate the probability of a single specific one, we still end up in the realm of accessible probability. For example, Wachowiusa & Holliger 2019 took a self-replicator of 150 nucleotides and broke it up into shorter strands of 20 or 30 nucleotides each and showed a self-replicating 150 nucleotide strand forms inevitably from them in the right context at a measurable rate (countless copies spontaneously formed). Across all volumes in the universe of randomly chaining nucleotides, there will form 10^120 more chains of 30 nucleotide length than of 150 nucleotide length. That’s a one followed by one hundred and twenty zeroes. The probability that several such chains of the right sequence will form in the same volume and then link together, by that inevitable process, into a 150-nucleotide self-replicator is vastly greater than the probability of a spontaneous random sequence of 150 nucleotides forming by itself. As the probability of their so chaining once available is effectively 100% in the specified environ, the total probability of such an assembly approaches that of the spontaneous assembly of molecules 40-60 nucleotides long. Which is likely one of the reasons Totani conservatively chose that as his range. But as easy as this is to hit upon in a universe so vastly old and large as ours, randomly hitting upon something like the Lee peptide will still be vastly more frequent. So we have no need of Totani’s reliance on RNA self-replicators. We already know life is many orders of magnitude more likely to arise from PNA, because PNA self-replicators will have arisen in this universe many orders of magnitude more frequently. Q does not understand the mathematical implications of this; or how it is based on actual evidence, not “assumptions.”
Q misunderstood several other things, such as assuming the structural shape of a PNA or RNA molecule must be determined separately from the sequencing of nucleotides; in fact the sequencing of nucleotides causes the resulting structure and shape. Ergo, we only have to calculate the odds of the sequence. Which is why Totani only bothers with that. Q also did not understand how mathematics entails the conclusion: in attempting to deny PNA self-replicators will be the more likely originators of life on worlds across the cosmos, Q insisted “experiments simply demonstrate that PNA-based replicators as short as 32aa can be produced; they don’t prove (and can’t prove) that that’s what actually happened historically.” But they don’t have to. Because that evidence already proves the mathematical conclusion that it will be vastly more frequent. This is not an assumption. It is a logical entailment from the evidence established. There is actually no way to avoid it: it is an empirical fact that PNA replicases will spontaneously arise on worlds with vastly greater frequency than RNA replicases. Therefore, it is an empirical fact that it is always more probable that life on any moon or planet arose in a PNA-first scenario; ergo it is more probable that’s how life originated on Earth. Yes, “maybe” Earth is one of the comparably rare worlds where it did begin with a far-less-commonly-formed RNA self-replicator. Sure. But it’s very unlikely, given what we empirically know about PNA replicases. And in any event, one cannot argue biogenesis is improbable “because” RNA replicases are improbable, when we know for a fact PNA replicases exist. So Q can’t get to his desired conclusion here no matter which way he turns. He simply doesn’t understand the conseqences of known facts.
There are actually more reasons than that to expect a PNA biogenesis: as I explained in the article Q was commenting on, PNA is “an even simpler and stronger peptide” and thus is for that reason also a more probable outcome of random chemical activity, and being more robust in harsh environments it can form and survive in more environments and therefore there are far more opportunities for a PNA biogenesis. We can therefore expect, by empirical fact, that far more biomes in the universe will have arisen from a PNA biogenesis than an RNA biogenesis. And since RNA can evolve from PNA—the sequence of steps is calculable and well within the probability range for a hundred million years of molecular evolution—we actually don’t need RNA-first theories in the first place. RNA is already an explicable outcome of PNA in applicable natural environments; and PNA protobionts are already known for a fact to be a far more expected occurrence in nature. But regardless, by the laws of probability, that biogenesis on Earth was by “either a PNA or RNA protobiont” remains on present evidence ~100%.
It therefore does not even matter to what creationists are trying to argue that, factually, P(PNA) > P(RNA). What matters is the sum total probability: P(PNA) + P(RNA), plus the probability of every other pathway known to be possible on current physics. So we don’t need to know “what historically happened” here on Earth. All we need to know is what most probably did. And evidence firmly establishes that’s a natural biogenesis, by either a PNA-first or RNA-first process; and indeed, by any available process for either. Because we know the options were quite abundant. Because factual evidence establishes numerous available physical pathways and environs on the early Earth for forming PNA or RNA. Yes, we don’t know which one happened. But we don’t need to. Evidence already establishes many suitable pathways and environs existed on the early Earth, and that the necessary initiating event is essentially 100% likely to happen somewhere in the known universe; and like any lottery, whoever the winner is is as likely to have been the winner as anyone else playing. So there is nothing more to explain as to why it happened here. The specific how of it we will continue to investigate; but the probability of it being some other unscientific, unevidenced mechanism is effectively zero. So as explanations go, theism simply isn’t even in the running here. All the evidence we have already establishes it had nothing to do with it, to a certainty exceeding all else.
Understanding the Science
Q attempted to claim Totani “neglected” many variables in his math that should lower his final odds. But he did not. That’s why his “math” passed peer review in a science journal. Totani takes into account, for example, the rarity of naturally-forming nucleotides (as opposed to nucleobases, which have been proven wildly abundant in nature). Just as he takes into account the rarity of conducive environments (even on the early Earth; likewise in the whole universe), not hostile or destructive ones; the probability specifically of stable self-replicators, not unstable ones; and the need of replicases to still multiply even in noisy, destructive environments (thus limiting the viable replicases and environs for him to count). The papers Totani cites show reproduction can exceed destruction in quite a large range of environments with numerous different replicases. Even just a 0.5% net gain per unit-time (in this case, a matter of mere seconds or minutes) is all that is needed for evolution by natural selection to go on to generate an entire tree of life over the ensuing millions and billions of years. That’s how powerful evolution is as a process. Replicases that can’t achieve that, environs that won’t allow that, Totani is not counting. Thus his math is unaffected by them. That’s the whole point of his study.
Other factors simply aren’t relevant, which is why Totani didn’t bother with them. For example, Q insisted that biogenesis “requires a reducing atmosphere which didn’t exist on the early earth,” but everyone in protobiology knows that that simply isn’t relevantly true anymore. It’s only an ignorant talking point you’ll find on creationist websites now. People should not be so easily duped. They should make an effort to understand the actual science instead. The particular kind of anoxic environments needed are in fact abundant even on present-day Earth, much more so before our biome generated most of the oxygen now present. One need only account for the anoxic volumes so-enclosed (how many, how large, how much stuff is in them), and Totani’s estimate for that, even for the early Earth, is conservative. He thus in no way assumes the entire Earth was anoxic. To the contrary, he assumes very little of it was. As do all current theories of biogenesis (e.g. clay-surface, ocean-vent, zinc sulfide, etc.). And Totani is indeed being conservative here. Disputes actually continue as to whether if or for how long a reducing atmosphere enveloped Earth. For example, a study published in 2011 only confirmed it wasn’t reducing as of 500 million years after Earth formed—not whether it hadn’t been hundreds of millions of years earlier; whereas there remains some evidence the earlier Earth was in fact anoxic for its first two hundred million years (example; example; example), and life may have originated in that earlier window (in fact, probably did). And this would greatly increase the probability of biogenesis that Totani calculated. But Totani conservatively assumes Earth’s early atmosphere was not reducing; the opposite of “not taking it into account.”
It’s also not as true anymore that reducing atmospheres are needed. They assist early life-formation. But the original Miller–Urey experiments assumed that amino acids had to be formed on Earth, which does require anoxic conditions. But we now know for an empirical fact that amino acids regularly form in, and arrived on Earth from outer space. Totani discusses this and cites a mere sample of the confirming studies; and he assumes this was the primary source of nucleobases available. In other words, none of Totani’s calculations rely on the atmospheric premise in Miller–Urey. Totani also mentions that suitable environments nevertheless would still exist on Earth, and just be fewer and thus less productive, so he does incorporate a conservative estimate of a terrestrial contribution to the nucleobase supply; but for this, he still does not assume a reducing atmosphere enveloped Earth. Once biogenesis has occurred, self-replication chemistry does not require a reducing atmosphere; hence several models of biogenesis, matching known scientific facts, omit that requirement. Indeed, all current leading theories do (see the summary by Gerald Bergtrom as well as the TalkOrigins summary and its associated section CB035 (and for arguments based on confusing oxygenated environs with non-reducing ones, CB035.1, CB035.2, and CB035.3). You can also peruse the TalkOrigins Abiogenesis FAQ.
Similarly, contrary to Q’s repetition of bogus creationist website rhetoric, Totani well knows, as do all protobiologists (including I’m sure his peer reviewers), “compartmentalization or encapsulation” is not a necessary component of the first life. Keeping the chemistry inside a cell or even just naturally occurring lipid nodules is certainly extremely helpful; but it is not required. It is now believed to be an evolved, not an original, feature of life. But even if we assume life began that way (and few now do), we already know such naturally-occuring places abundantly exist for life to form and grow in (which are now believed to be habitats that early life moved into and occupied rather than originated in). All the ability to repair and modify that enclosure is then just another avenue of an organisms’s evolved ability to control its environment (see The Role of Lipid Membranes in Life’s Origin and The Origin and Evolution of Cells and Uncovering the Genomic Origins of Life). So Totani has no need of accounting for this. No model he is calculating from requires life to originate in lipid enclosures, and lipid enclosures are so abundantly ocurring in naure that the probability of their presence to occupy is ~100%. So this does not have to be accounted for. Evidence already accounts for it.
Likewise, Q further reveals he does not understand the science when he complains that “what the empirical and experimental evidence indicates is that cells with minimal genomes of only a few hundred genes and proteins can exist.” These are all evolved features, not original features, of life. Genes, cells, protein metabolism: none of these exist in any biogenesis model. The self-replicating RNA and PNA we have empirically proved exist have none of these things. They do not possess genes. They do not metabolize proteins. They do not reside in cells. They do not even possess codon coding. So Q really does not understand here the difference between biogenesis and evolution. He clearly has not read any of the pertinent science on biogenesis. For if he had, he would not make this mistake. Confusing evolved for spontaneous features is a Class VI error. Hence you cannot understand biogenesis, if you keep confusing those two things. It is evident that Q, in ignorance, is just flailing around for any excuse he can come up with for rejecting the mathematically inevitable consequences of abundant empirical evidence. And that’s a broken epistemology on full display.
Another example of this “error mode” is when Q asks—as if no one has ever thought of this before—that “it is further difficult to explain how a single self-replicator that was so successful (in terms of fitness), would then be replaced, so as to leave no vestige of its prior existence.” This is about as scientifically illiterate in this context as one can get. All protobiologists know this requires no explanation at all, because it is literally self-explaining: the highly adapted powerhouses of DNA-based organisms vastly out-compete relatively frail naked RNA and PNA organisms. This is why RNA life only survives today in the form of viruses, which get by now by coopting DNA-based reproductive machinery: that machinery is so much more effective and advanced, it simply isn’t possible for any virus to out-compete another that learned to coopt that. Thus viruses that reproduced themselves simply went extinct; thriving in their place, are the viruses that learned to do one better. So if you want to know what happened to the entire original pre-DNA biome, quite simply, it was all eaten. It was outdone by the far more advanced organisms that evolved from it. This is why it no longer exists. This is also why PNA organisms no longer exist: they weren’t even capable of the adaptation RNA viruses exploited that kept them around, because they didn’t even have a physical structure capable of it. So their extinction was assured, once a biome of more evolved organisms filled every niche on Earth. Which cannot be stopped from happening in relatively short time. Every expert knows this. Which is why they no longer bother discussing it, confusing inattentive creationists, who never actually learn how evolution works.
Or how evidence works. Q insisted the claim that there is more than one possible self-replicating molecule is an assumption. But it’s not. It’s actually the other way around: that there is only one is an assumption; worse, an assumption now empirically refuted. The Lee peptide is not the only self-replicating molecule we’ve already discovered; and the evidence establishes it is essentially impossible that the few random examples we have found “are” the only ones, as there are countless self-replicators on Earth already, proving that countless ways to assemble one exist. It is therefore impossible that we have found them all, even in the shortest sequence range. We have already empirically proved countless functional RNA chains exist in the 40-60 nucleotide range, and RNA in that range can mutually catalyze into self-replicating chains of over 100 nucleotides. We could never explore every possible sequence in that set to test it for self-replication ability, but since we struck on the ones we do know by chance, statistically it is trillions to one against that what we’ve found are the only ones in that range, or indeed that the number there are is even small. It is empirically necessarily the case that there must be quite a lot more of them. And Totani’s estimate of how many is by his own admission absurdly conservative. And he didn’t even include known PNA replicases in his analysis, which prove there is an even larger range of possible self-replicators. So that there are far more than only one is an empirical fact, not an assumption.
Similarly, Q complains that “it is not just a simple matter of ‘rolling the dice’ enough times” because “that is not how mass action chemistry actually works.” But it is—as much as is needed for the math to hold. Totani’s calculation is accounting for the fact that the requisite chemical events, and the requisite chemical environments, are rare. The question is simply what the probability is of the right sequence of chance events, producing the needed chain of molecules, in the required chemical conditions. Totani’s math thus accounts for all the countless greater numbers of failures there inevitably will be, owing to the messiness of chemistry and its environs, and thus all the countless ways a biogenesis process can go wrong or be undermined. It’s just an empirical fact (to Q’s chagrin) that the conditions that will be instead conducive rarther than destructive to such random chaining are ubiquitous in the known universe, owing to the universe being so absurdly huge and various, and that only a protobiont with a minimal amount of advantage is required: just enough to allow reproduction to cause a population to grow—even by the slightest amount, and thus even if almost all reproductions fail or are destroyed. This is not assumption. It is all an empirical fact or a logically valid inference from empirical facts. As has been proved by all the scientists Totani cites, and by all the known science underlying his work and theirs (from physics to biochemistry), establishing how random assembly of monomers in the right environments leads to exactly this kind of “natural experimentation” in chaining sequences, even to quite long chains; and enough environs remain across the cosmos that would permit it to then grow by replication, and thus evolve, to ensure that somewhere, it did.
Factoring in Evolution by Natural Selection
You have to ask yourself: what are the odds life would indeed have originated in the only way it naturally can (God has no need of naturally chaining molecules, or of such vast scales of space, matter, and time to ensure enough random mixing of them), precisely where and when a natural biogenesis would be expected to occur (the various suitable environs known to exist on the prebiotic Earth)? Natural theories explain all these oddities (why start with a single naturally-occurring chemical, why take billions of years to build it into more, why have trillions of galaxies around and billions of years to burn?); while theism does not (without gerrymandering excuses for it, no evidence for which exists). There is simply no case left for “god did it.” Odds are, nature did it. All the evidence establishes no other conclusion. Once any self-replicating molecule exists in any suitable environment, mutation and natural selection will inevitably produce a biome of advancing speciation. A tree of life; inevitable outcome. Which is how all the “other” functions and features and capabilities of life come about: they are not a part of biogenesis, but of evolution by natural selection; a completely different phenomenon. And this is because the mathematics of evolution are inescapably much more favorable than of mere biogenesis. Evolution is by its very nature a probability sieve: it skips the need to arrive at complex structures “spontaneously” by arriving at them through stepwise advances, each of which is highly probable (in fact, given enough time, inevitable; which is why evolution accomplishes so much with such extraordinary amounts of time).
Like most Christians who have a hard time grasping the significance of vast spans of time, Q incorrectly thinks a hundred million years is too “short” an amount of time. It is not. When replications occur in mere seconds, a hundred million years is equivalent to a billion or more years in evolutionary time. For example: over the last half billion years on average mammals could double their number every 15 years or so (losses preventing that then drive evolution over that period); if they could have done that in 15 minutes, as protobionts more than can, then they would be 4 x 24 x 365 x 15 = 525,600 times more evolved in that same period, ergo one year for a protobiont is equivalent to 35,040 years in animal-scale evolution. A hundred million years is then equivalent to 100,000,000 x 35,040 = 3,504,000,000,000 or three trillion years of equivalent evolution. That’s the math. And that’s why scientists don’t need to explain why evolution from simple protobionts to our familiar single-celled life could occur within that window. That’s damn well plenty of time. And no “straightforward trajectories” are needed. Evolution by natural selection finds pathways readily no matter how meandering, for which scales of time this vast are ample, as I have demonstrated before: even with extremely conservative assumptions, the T4 bacteriophage is guaranteed to arise within a billion years of evolution; with more realistic assumptions, simple bacteria, such as even still exist, would take but mere millions of years—and the early Earth had over a hundred million to work with. This follows if we adopt something closer to an empirically confirmed rate of additive mutation and a small average population size of subcellular life-forms, which would get us one relevant progressive mutation per year (still absurdly conservative). In those conditions recognizable cellular life will populate the earth in less than half a million years after the first protobiont. Given the greater simplicity of life in PNA and RNA worlds over codon-based DNA worlds, the transition from each to the next can be expected to have occurred in similar timeframes. Ergo, a hundred million years is ample. In fact, that there was so much time, is evidence this was indeed nature taking its course. God just makes stuff; instantly. Only nature requires millions and millions of years. So that life required the latter to get to even just single-celled DNA-codon models, proves nature, not gods, produced life on Earth.
Hence the power of the evolutionary process is one of the reasons we now know it is what happened. It’s too incredible a coincidence that such a simple, blind, iterative process can produce such scales of complexity on such scales of time. Just as we see. It therefore must have done it. And all the evidence we have confirms that.
Conclusion
All I did in the article Q couldn’t handle was show that Totani’s estimated probability of natural biogenesis in the universe (which was still ~100%) is even still too low. Once we correct his Class VII error (his not considering nonrandom natural processes in contributing to the formation of protobionts; many of which are empirically verified) and his Class V error (his grossly over-estimating the smallest possible self-replicating molecule; smaller self-replicators are empirically verified), the probability of natural biogenesis can be shown to be enormously greater than even he finds it to be. So on a basis of evidence we get a conclusion even more certain than Totani’s that, as I said, “the universe is so unfathomably large that abiogenesis is inevitable even on Totani’s overly conservative assumptions.” That this conclusion follows with even more certainty when Totani’s oversights are corrected is what follows from actual empirical facts—not speculations or “mere assumptions.”
That’s why naturalism is not “in trouble” over biogenesis. Naturalism has already more successfully explained biogenesis and all its surrounding facts than any other worldview: it predicts and thus explains why life started that way (a single molecule of naturally-chaining chemicals), why it took so long to get to making even plants and animals much less people, why the universe has to be so large and old and deadly and full of wildly varying worlds, why the early Earth looked the way it did, and why its history, geo-climatically and biologically, proceeded in the particular way that it did. None of this is predicted by theism. All of it is predicted by naturalism. A naturalist theory of biogenesis is therefore far more probable on the evidence. And you can’t object to this result with a “but you don’t have any theories of how the first protobiont could have formed,” because we do; and not just theories, but theories abundantly based empirically on evidence—such as of the physical processes proposed and their expected outcomes and their availability on the early Earth. Theism comes nowhere near to this scale of empirical status. Not even by a thousand miles. So that leaves naturalism quite comfortable on present facts.
Throughout this conversation we find Q committing a lot of scientific errors—ignorance of facts, getting facts wrong—which, yes, does partly explain why he is trapped in his delusion. But mere ignorance and error would readily be corrected in the mind of anyone operating with an effective epistemology. Case in point, Q caught one error in my paper: I was wrong to say that “nowhere in [Totani’s] paper does he even mention, much less account for, PNA-first models of biogenesis.” Upon learning this, I immediately corrected the error. Totani does not explicitly mention such models, but he has one line inclusive of them, with an admission that he is leaving them out of account; my article is now worded accordingly. You won’t see Q do anything like this very often. But in that respect and many others, it is not mere ignorance and error, but his broken epistemology that keeps Q trapped in this hall of mirrors. He does not understand—and I would wager, owing to the resulting cognitive dissonance he’d encounter, does not want to understand—the difference between an actual assumption and an inference from evidence. He also does not understand degrees in the latter category; that some inferences from evidence are weak, some are strong, some are far stronger still. Nor does he understand how mathematical consequences follow from observed empirical facts. And thus, for example, he cannot understand that evidence proving something is possible can well be strong enough to be confident it’s likely, without having additional evidence confirming the result actually does or has happened; while conversely, lacking that same evidence for even the possibility of a process, like divine creation, much less its actuality, puts you in a vastly worse epistemic position, not a better one. It is the theist who is in trouble here. Not the naturalist.
This is the same error we observe when Q refuses to grasp or admit the difference between the expected features of a protobiont arrived at by random natural biogeneses, and the more elaborate and impressive features of subsequent life that then evolve by natural selection. Yet no one can understand biogenesis who does not grasp this distinction. Spontaneous biogenesis requires an extremely improbable initiating event; evolution by natural selection never does, but to the contrary, automatically builds incredible specified complexity in very short orders of time. So when it comes to any natural biogenesis, all we need to have occurred is the conjunction of two things: (a) the right chained sequence of chemicals producing any self-replicating molecule and (b) a suitable environment to allow its continued reproduction and thus evolution to take hold. The probability of (b) occurring in this cosmos has been scientifically proved with abundant evidence to be ~100%. So neither I nor Totani nor any naturalist has to account for it. That leaves only the probability of (a). Which we know, for all the reasons I lay out (which are references to evidenced facts) is substantially higher than Totani calculates. And that’s that. There are no assumptions here. Just empirical facts, and what logically necessarily follows from those empirical facts. Theism, by contrast, in this case has zero empirical facts to call upon in its defense.
Thus naturalism wins here, by an overwhelming preponderance of evidence. And that evidence is already so overwhelming that if you ever do get to look into the “black box” containing the answer here, what actually historically happened on Earth, whether it was “a natural or unnatural biogenesis,” we can already be quite confident that what we’ll see in that box is “natural.” Only a straight up fool would bet against that now.
Christ, this is the hill they decided to die on?
The analogy I’ve used that has helped to make it a little easier for people is to compare it to cards. If we’re playing Texas hold’em and I have two kings in hand (say the King of Hearts and the King of Diamonds) and two queens are dealt (say, the Queen of Hearts and the Queen of Diamonds) along with a Jack of Hearts, and the only other person left I’m betting against has a two and a seven of clubs, and then the turn card is a Ten of Hearts, I know I’ve won. It doesn’t matter that the last three cards left could be any of the rest of the deck. So if someone asks me then “How do you expect to win?”, the fact that I can answer “Well, I could win with two pair on the river because the best possible remaining hand he can get is a pair of sevens, or I can win by a royal flush if the Ace of Hearts comes down, or I can win by a full house if either of the remaining Kings or Queens comes down, or I can win with a straight flush if the Nine of Hearts comes down, or I can win by a non-flush straight if any other Ace comes down, or I can win by a non-straight flush if any more Hearts comes down” doesn’t make me less likely to win.
Professor Dave (a very good YouTube science communicator who has raked Hovind and James Tour over the coals) in the exact context of creationism and abiogenesis has used another analogy, that of one person telling another that they visited a friend yesterday. The fact that the person making the visit could have used a bus, a train, a car, a bike, a motorcycle, or walked, doesn’t justify the inference that it must have been quantum teleportation or magic.
Hello, Q here.
Richard, you are absolutely ridiculous, laughable, and lovable (but how privileged I feel that you would devote an entire blog on me). So where do you go wrong? The question is where don’t you go wrong? You’ve committed error after error after error and false assumption after false assumption after false assumption, starting with the fact that as I already told you I’m an evolutionary biologist, not a creationist! But no, you go on and on and on about this supposed ‘creationist Q’ who you’re supposedly exposing when all the while as I told you I’m an evolutionary biologist! Not only that, I’m actively involved in countering YEC/ID activists, religious apologists, and the like in my work with national science education organizations! But thank you for the comic relief! I’m literally dying here laughing, falling out of my chair as I read your expose of the sinister ‘creationist Q’ and all my supposed inner workings, thoughts, motivations, and imaginings. Your powers of clairvoyance continues to amaze! My colleagues are going to love and have a field day with this. Thanks for the entertainment. You’re hilarious!
I also love how you misrepresent my comments with little snippets here and there, like my comment about the earth not having a reducing atmosphere, which is common knowledge in the OOL community. (And you confuse reducing with anoxic. You’re right, the earth’s atmosphere was anoxic the first half billion years after formation, but it was also non-reducing! You’re really not as smart and informed on this topic as you think you are. Learn about anoxic, non-reducing neutral atmospheres). But is that all I said? No Richard, it’s not. I said because of this we’ve had to postulate a transient, impact induced reducing atmosphere to compensate. Your comment about localized reducing environments shows your ignorance of the volume of reducing gasses needed to generate sufficient formaldehyde and HCN we need for RNA nucleotide synthesis. We can’t have prebiotic syntheses without sufficient feedstock concentrations. Learn some chemistry, Richard. It’s estimated that we need a moon-sized impactor to do the job. Look up the work of Stephen Benner and the Moneta impact hypothesis and educate yourself.
I love how you also read things into my words that aren’t there, like my supposed confusion between evolution and biogenesis in my discussion of minimal genomes and LUCA, as if I would ever say something so silly. All I said was we only had a few hundred million years to not only originate a self-replicator, and life but also the Last Universal Common Ancestor (LUCA) with an estimated 400 genes. I never said evolution wasn’t involved, I was simply telling you where we have to get to while we’re still in the Hadean—it’s not just a self-replicating molecule. But nice job reading into my words things that aren’t there.
And if you think we only need two things for biogenesis–the right molecular linking of amino acids, in the right environment conducive to rather than hostile to that chain ‘forming, metabolizing, and reproducing’–then you seriously need to take some classes in biochemistry, molecular biology, cell biology, microbiology, organic chemistry, and the like. Not only is a string of amino acids insufficient, but if you actually knew what you’re talking about–which you’ve proven abundantly that you don’t–then you would know that there is no ‘right environment’ that can achieve all this. It’s now recognized that there is no single environment that can provide all the conditions necessary for prebiotic synthesis–which includes conditions that are mutually exclusive and counter indicative. Instead, it’s recognized that multiple, different environments are needed that must interface to form a networked reaction system.
Your dogmatic insistence that in the context of biogenesis a self-replicator is life by definition, again shows your limited knowledge of the field. Not everyone agrees with that. Hell, we don’t even have a consensus definition of life. But as I said, what we do know is where we have to get to in a few hundred million years, and it’s not simply a self-replicating molecule, but life as we know it, while we’re still in the Hadean.
Your dogmatic defense of PNA-first against the supposed ‘creationist Q’ is also laughably reactionary, and blinds you to the simple facts of what I was saying that not everyone is convinced of the PNA-first scenario, because there are still many problems with the idea (that probability won’t solve, only organic chemistry!). And that’s what it is–an idea. Your problem is that you mistakenly treat it as if it were some unassailable, established empirical fact or ‘dogma’, when it’s not, but highly conjectural, and highly disputed. Most ‘RNA-first’ proponents still believe in direct RNA nucleotide synthesis without a preceding PNA world, which they believe needlessly complicates things–but hey, what do they know compared to the great RC. (And most ‘RNA-first’ proponents today do not think extraterrestrial sources of nucleobases are anywhere near sufficient, and would largely be destroyed on impact. Instead, as I said, a moon-sized impactor to create a short-lived transient reducing atmosphere for synthesis on earth is what is currently believed). You are dogmatically defending what amounts to a minority view in the origin of life field, because of your ignorance.
You mistake this for a ‘creationist attack’ when it’s simply an accurate description of the origin of life field. It’s a highly conjectural, speculative field. That’s not a criticism, nor disparagement, it’s simply the nature of the field and how it is. There’s very few things we can prove when it comes to the origin of life. And if you think we have empirically demonstrated multiple plausible pathways to the origin of life, then you are woefully uneducated and have a simplistic understanding of things at best. We don’t even know what all the steps are! We can’t even envision it! The problem is not with your calculations, which I’ve never disputed, but with all the additional unknowns that we haven’t included–steps we don’t know the probability of, because we don’t even know what the steps are! We haven’t figured them all out yet (and no, I’m not saying we have to figure out every single step, but we’re not simply talking about one or two here, but enormous gaps; look up Sutherland’s estimate on how far we’ve come and how far we still need to go). That’s simply the facts of the situation.
Whiteside aptly summarized it when he said, ‘Most chemists believe, as do I, that life emerged spontaneously from mixtures of molecules in the prebiotic Earth…How? I have no idea.’
That’s just an honest, accurate assessment of the state of things. Don’t get me wrong, we’ve learned tons, and made important advancements, and there is no shortage of intriguing ideas (which Whiteside goes on to discuss), but these advancements represent a drop in the bucket of where we need to get to. You truly don’t seem to comprehend the complexity of the problems. A self-replicating molecule is essential and an important step, but in many ways it’s still just a baby step of where we have to get to.
But I do want to thank you for what you’ve written here, because it’s been very enlightening and thrown into sharp relief for me where the true problem lies. I don’t know why I didn’t see it before, but now I see it clearly. The problem Richard, is that you’re the one who’s actually the apologist–not me. You’re a dogmatic defender of metaphysical naturalism, whereas my interest here lies strictly with science, not philosophy. So your long winded diatribes on religion, and theism, and god this and god that are wasted on me, because that’s not my concern with your blog. As I already said, theism and ‘super ghosts’ have no place in science. You’re preaching to the choir, so stop wasting your breath trying to convince me of what I already agree with you on. And if you want to carry on about how metaphysical naturalism on balance is more probable than theism, and that you can prove with Bayes Theorem and yada yada yada that the origin of life must have a naturalistic explanation, hey, then more power to you. That’s your thing. I’m not a philosopher (Although, of course, you’re not a philosopher either! You’re an ancient historian trying to educate me–an evolutionary biologist–about both evolution and biology, which is laughable!). But ‘proving’ there must be a naturalistic explanation is different from empirically demonstrating one.
The fact remains that in your zealous defense of metaphysical naturalism that you have pressed the case too far on the science side of things and greatly overstated and asserted things far too dogmatically. The science is simply not as definitive as you mistakenly believe it to be. I’m also not discounting the value of probablistic arguments, which have their place, but most scientists don’t count that as empirical demonstration, anymore than they count Einstein’s general relativity as empirical demonstration of an expanding universe without observational evidence. To origin of life chemists, it doesn’t really matter even if you can ‘prove’ that the universe is sufficiently large to make abiogenesis ‘inevitable’. They don’t see that as a scientific explanation. Nor is ‘random chance’ in a sufficiently large universe that makes the wildly improbable probable. Even if that’s true mathematically that’s still not a scientific explanation. The difference is you look at fantastic, improbable odds and argue that it’s not a problem, whereas a prebiotic chemist looks at it and rules it out as a possible pathway to life on earth and goes back to the drawing board. As I said, today’s origin of life researchers don’t believe in leaving it to chance, but are looking for unique contingencies that truly do make life a demonstrable–not simply an assumed–natural consequence of a unique set of physical and chemical conditions. It is assumed they exist. It has yet to be empirically demonstrated. And if you believe it already has been then you’re fooling yourself, and are woefully misinformed.
Take for instance your statement: “We have several naturalistic explanations for the origin of life, all match known science and available evidence. Q is confusing that, with knowing which one is true. [The hell I am]. But we don’t need to know which one is true. Because we already know there are a dozen, any one of which can be true. Those explanations all completely fit the evidence and known science.”
Your statement is complete and utter nonsense. Absolute BS. Your statement betrays a simplistic, amateurish, and limited surface knowledge textbook understanding of the subject. And don’t bother bragging about your nearly 20 year old peer-reviewed article (which is really just an anti-creationist piece, which while useful, does not contribute to scientific knowledge on the subject)–as if that somehow makes you, an ancient historian, an authority on the subject of life’s origin. What you’ve done Richard is looked for studies that confirm what you want to find, and ignored the rest. That’s because you’re not really interested in learning science for science sake. You’re interested in defending and being an apologist for metaphysical naturalism. And like I said, more power to you. But that still does not give you the license to misrepresent the science and press your case so dogmatically when the science does not warrant it.
There is not a single scenario that ‘completely fits the evidence and known science.’ The devil’s in the details. Every single one of them has immense problems. All you need do, Richard, is dig a little deeper, and expand your myopic viewpoint beyond the limited literature you’ve read to include all the various different ‘camps’ in the origin of life field such as the RNA world, metabolism world, lipid world, hydrothermal vent proponents, alkaline serpentinizing proponents, protein first proponents, ‘single pot’ synthesis proponents who believe lipid, protein, and nucleic acid components must all originate simultaneously, and on and on and on and on….Don’t just read about the hypotheses they promote. Read and study their critiques of each other’s hypotheses. Then, and only then, will you begin to form a true and accurate assessment of the state of things.
For starters, and a general discussion of such problems in life origin research, see, e.g., Bains (2020), “Getting Beyond the Toy Domain. Meditations on David Deamer’s ‘Assembling Life'”. Read Luisi’s and other metabolism-first proponents’ critiques of the RNA-first hypothesis and hydrothermal vents. Also, read Luisi’s critiques of the ‘necessity/determinist’ camp that believes life is ‘inevitable’ (You’re mistaken on this. Not everyone believes that life is inevitable. The origin of life field is roughly split on the issue, with some advocating inevitable determinism and others contingency). Read RNA-first proponents’ critiques of the metabolism-first camp. Read Davies’ critiques of both RNA-first and metabolism-first in e.g., ‘The Algorithmic Origins of Life’. RNA-first is the most popular view, but there are plenty of scientists who disagree, and think the scenario is hopelessly burdened with too many problems
We truly do not have a scientifically demonstrable, defensible explanation for the origin of life. That’s simply a fact about the current state of our scientific knowledge. But instead of recognizing what the origin of life community recognizes itself, you get defensive (like an apologist!), reactionary, and falsely (hilariously!) accuse me of being a creationist, which I am not. Science operates under the assumption that all things, including the origin of life, have a naturalistic explanation. And science has an excellent track record demonstrating that. But it still remains to be done with the origin of life. It’s our working assumption, but it remains an empirically unverified one. In this sense, yes, absolutely, it remains a gap and outstanding, unsolved problem for metaphysical naturalism (the one remaining weakness, imo, but it’s still a huge one): we assume a naturalistic explanation, but we have yet to empirically demonstrate one. The great hope is one day we will, but it would be ridiculous to claim this has already been accomplished
And geesh, Richard! It’s not like this is some huge revelation. There’s not an OOL scientist around who believes the origin of life problem has been solved, or adequately, plausibly explained (much less a dozen different ways), and/or empirically demonstrated to the unassailable, unquestionable degree you believe. And as much as I’d like to say otherwise and agree with you that’s just not reality. When it comes to the origin of life, not everything is as neat, tidy, and airtight as you’d like it to be.
But I do thank you for the exchange, which I’ve found enjoyable and now very entertaining.
Sigh. More word walls.
Starting with ad hominem and childish insults, even. Classic.
Fact: you were as you stated from the outset arguing against metaphysical naturalism and natural biogenesis. Whatever obfuscation you are attempting in order to hide this now perplexes, as anyone can go see that. I provided the links.
I did not misrepresent anything you said. I correctly pointed out the debate and facts on each point with links to the science. Anyone can check both (they can go look at what you said, and they can go look at the scientific material I linked to).
You try now to make irrelevant distinctions (like between reducing and anoxic environs), showing me that you didn’t check the linked science. If you did, you would not have mistaken me for confusing them.
And I did not say “that was all you said.” I covered every pertinent thing you said. Not just “one” thing.
And all my chemistry summarizes and follows the science I linked to. You thus are strangely arguing against scientists, not me. Which does not make you sound like a scientist here.
I also addressed both your argument that hundreds of millions of years wasn’t enough time for spontaneous assembly and your argument that it wasn’t enough time to evolve the first cellular life from there. That you pretend now I didn’t address both is strange. And suggests you are just rage commenting and didn’t actually read my article carefully.
It is simply false that “It’s now recognized that there is no single environment that can provide all the conditions necessary for prebiotic synthesis.” The literature is full of described complete environs, which all did or could exist on the early Earth (and countless other places in the cosmos)—even those that involve transitioning to new niches at various stages, rendering the “no single environment” complaint moot; and not all require that. (This is biogenesis we are talking about, not evolution, remember? You can’t appeal to evolved features, like niche-crawling, in an argument against biogenesis.)
“Not everyone agrees” the first life was a self-replicating molecule tells me you are not really a scientist, or not really reading any on this subject. Maybe you want some sort of semantic argument (about whether we should call such a thing proto-life or life), but few protobiology researchers would follow you on that, and it would have no factual bearing on the issue anyway. You can’t change what something is by changing what you call it.
And “life as we know it” is an evolved thing, and thus has no bearing on the biogenesis question. Nevertheless, I addressed the timelines involved in the one becoming the other, even though the one is not the same thing as the other. That even now you keep confusing the two is telling.
And a note to the wise, talking about possibilities and probabilities and advancing evidence and cited science in support of them, is the opposite of being “dogmatic” in defense of PNA-first biomes. Rejecting them is dogmatism. I’m sorry to tell you, but I am not the dogmatist in this conversation.
You keep making spurious claims about what “most” scientists say, but I am the only one here who has cited dozens of peer reviewed articles, and summaries, by those very scientists showing what they actually say. You have not cited a single one. Let that sink in.
Finally here you cite some articles, but they say nothing pertinent to my argument. I already pointed out there are many competing theories of natural biogenesis and that this increases, not decreases the probability of natural biogenesis. So your citing some more examples has no impact whatever on anything I have argued. To the contrary it supports my point.
Dr. Carrier I’m curious how you respond to Christian personal testimony. I guess you could call it the “changed lives” claim or argument.
Because in fact that is what most Christians on the street use to try and persuade people to follow Jesus.
More so I would say than engaging you in the type of philosophical discussions and debates that are seen on this blog or in Philosophy classrooms.
I think it would be kind of tricky to argue with someone about their personal experience when as they claim their life turned around once began to follow Jesus.
I say tricky because I suspect explanation probably lies somewhere in psychology. So it probably isn’t even a philosophical type of discussion to start with.
I’m curious as to your thoughts on all of that?
All religions and ideologies, including atheism, humanism, even Marxism, have “changed lives” narratives. Once one discovers that, they might realize it proves that that can be no evidence of the truth of anything. I myself had a changed life experience when I converted to Taoism (which I tell in Sense and Goodness without God). So, either Taoism is true, or “changed lives” experiences don’t argue for the truth of anything. I’ve come to realize it’s the latter.
This point I formalize in Bayesian Counter-Apologetics, §6 “Argument from Religious Experience.”
Moreover, when you interrogate people on the “changed lives” argument, even when you don’t do what Richard did and be honest and check the data (which is to check if there are mutually exclusive theories that could be supported by the same argument), you find problems.
People will point to very vague experiences. Even if they recount (probably through memory editing) literally seeing angels and divine messages, they didn’t telepathically absorb the entire Bible that way. They are going to be interpreting that experience in the light of a worldview that a) they statistically probably already had and b) that, even if they converted as a result, was already fully-fledged and included answers that they didn’t get from their experience.
Which means the Christian’s beliefs aren’t based in revelation and personal experience. A tiny fraction are, but the rest is a package deal from scripture or a website or apologetics organizations or preachers or influential fellow members of the church. And it wouldn’t logically have to be that way. Imagine if, suddenly, a person in an uncontacted village replicated, writing and speaking in ancient Greek, the entirety of the Bible. Would Christians not (rightly) use that as pretty strong evidence? As Sean Carroll pointed out to Craig in one of his many fatal blows during that debate, if you would count evidence as pointing toward your theory, you have to count it not being there as evidence against. The fact that that doesn’t happen, ever, makes the personal revelation weak sauce.
Aron Ra found that, when he talked to people that he (thought he) used to share spiritual experiences, they hadn’t seen the thing he thought they had agreed they both had. That desire to seek consensus in groupthink becomes very strong.
So, in effect, allowing this point to go unchallenged is just to allow both lazy propaganda and people lying to themselves to go unchallenged. It’s to acquiesce to groupthink instead of honest introspection. The people who are willing to be honestly introspective are going to routinely find that the case is much weaker than they thought.
Those are all very good points, too. This reminds me now of my first peer reviewed article: Do Religious Life and Critical Thought Need Each Other? Wherein I address much the same problems Frederic Christie just enumerated.
Hello, Q here. Really Richard? You’re going to continue to maintain this elaborate fiction that I’m a creationist when you know better? When I told you I’m an evolutionary biologist. When I expressly stated (in agreement with you) that theism and ‘super ghosts’ have no place in science. When I stated more than once that we have substantive, definitive evidence for biological evolution and universal common ancestry, which have been empirically demonstrated beyond question (How you get ‘creationist’ out of that is beyond me). You’re going to pat yourself on the back and pretend to be noble for correcting a minor error with Totani’s mention of non-RNA analogues, but let this major mistake stand uncorrected? Really Richard?
I don’t fault you for missing my statement about being an evolutionary biologist. I, too, skim read in the interests of time and I’m sure I’ve missed points you’ve made, as well. I also appreciate the desire to save face, so I understand if you don’t post this comment (In fact, don’t post it). I’d be reluctant to do the same, too, if I were in your shoes, for what, after all, amounts to just a simple, unintentional mistake. You skim read and simply missed what I wrote. No big deal. I’ve done the same thing myself. No harm, no foul. But you’ve created this elaborate, false narrative as a result. I am not a creationist, and I find it deeply insulting to be mislabeled as such. So at minimum, you should at least take down your post from your website. No fanfare, no acknowledgment, admission, or explanation needed. A quiet, simple removal works for me. But it would be wrong to let it remain, so I am appealing to your good character and integrity to remove it, and I thank you in advance for doing so.
Please provide your cv here. And then explain what you think is true if, as you argued from the start, that metaphysical naturalism is not; and if, as you argued from the start, that does not explain biogenesis, what you think does.
Don’t hide behind obfuscation. Tell the truth.
There is a Jihadi Muslim that will debate you on your Philo of Alexandria argument.
He has a YouTube channel called Hamza’s Den.
And his email is: hamzasden4@gmail.com
I don’t organize debates. Others have to request me. So, you’d have to direct them to my Booking page and have them reach out if they are interested and can meet my terms.
I don’t know what on Earth this has to do with biogenesis though.
Q here. Richard, I see you’ve ignored my requests, and are going to continue to misrepresent my position and misidentify me as a creationist when I’m an evolutionary biologist. Your tactics and behavior are reprehensible and disgraceful. No worries though. I’ll make sure the word gets out about you and the type of disreputable person you really are.
Uh huh. Sure.
Once again you give no evidence for anything you are claiming. You claim I “misrepresent” you in some pertinent respect; yet you give no examples of this happening. I linked to and quoted what you said, so it’s not possible anyone can be “misled” on this.
For example, your whole thread consisted of denying natural biogenesis (your whole argument is against “metaphysical naturalism,” your words). That makes you a creationist. Yes, creationists can also be evolutionary biologists, although your ignorance of science tends to suggest to me you do not actually have any graduate degrees or publications in even that field, much less protobiology.
If you can find a pertinent misrepresentation anywhere, do let me know. I always correct errors. But they have to actually exist to be corrected.
And now the cowardice rears its ugly head.
Q, he just gave you the chance to do that. He asked you to describe your CV, your views. He gave you a chance to clarify.
You acting wounded tells me and everyone else who isn’t dogmatically on whatever your side happens to be that you’re, frankly, full of shit. You know that the optics of having to admit that you have a position that isn’t the minimal, defendable one you’ve taken for this debate isn’t good. Despite the fact that Richard of all people will happily allow you to argue a fortiori and pick a defensible position that happens to be more limited than the one you actually hold, as he himself has done. You’re trying to look good over being an honest or effective debater or defender of your views.
Look up “motte and bailey” (Richard has an argument on it). It transparently looks that you are trying to perform this fallacious line of argumentation. You self-evidently made a strong claim, Richard took you to task for it, and you are now making a weak claim. Yes, OOL researchers don’t think the matter is solved. They also don’t think that the matter is insoluble. You continue to not mention the latter, dishonestly attesting to the state of the field while ironically and insidiously accusing others of doing so. And the fact that the matter is so clearly insoluble, as the experts agree, again is a victory for metaphysical naturalism. It shows that metaphysical naturalism has so broadly won out (eclipsed only by methdological naturalism which is literally ubiquitous among thinking people, even to the point that creationists and apologists use it) that no one is even thinking there will ever be a need to point to anything beyond chemicals for the formation of life. Any honest creationist has to admit that they are therefore on a sinking island, with no likelihood that they will ever regain lost ground. Which was Richard’s point. Which makes you commenting the way you have, if you are ostensibly not a creationist and instead an evolutionary biologist, baffling. Which makes your failure to share even a bit of your qualifications and worldview even more baffling… unless we violate intellectual charity and assume you’re a spineless apologist.
To be fair, Q may yet produce his CV here. They bombarded the site with all those comments on the same day, before I saw any of them, and thus probably haven’t seen my replies to them yet, including the request for their CV. They still have time to come through on that. But yes, that bombardment of comments before awaiting any replies suggests an emotional person reacting rather than thinking. The emotionally immature content of the posts reinforces that picture.
And yes, I am curious what their motte is. The bailey is obviously “metaphysical naturalism is in trouble,” as those are their words. But that entails doubting natural biogenesis; which entails entertaining supernatural biogenesis. Which is creationism. I cannot think of what motte there could be inside that bailey that is neither metaphysical naturalism (and hence natural biogenesis) nor supernatural biogenesis (and hence creationism). Even being charitable (and assuming they are being sincere) the options aren’t likely to get where they want.
For example, I was once a creationist Taoist, who also didn’t believe in gods, since the Tao is not an intellect but still an intentional force; I believed the Tao was responsible for creating the universe and all life within it, in line with the “Genesis” passages in the Tao Te Ching; my position was much more minimalist than the traditional one, on which see Taoist Creation Theory, but was still creationist in the basic sense. So even that fringe position can’t escape the bailey. There is no motte here.
But maybe I’m overlooking some hidden “third” option. Whatever it is, though, it would have to be extremely rare and bizarre. Because I of all people have never encountered it in decades of intellectual study in this debate, and can’t even think up one. Every option is creationist. So maybe Q is engaging in an equivocation fallacy (there is some evidence of this in their remarks), and using “creationist” to mean exclusively “Young Earth” and denying of evolution while they themselves are “Old Earth” and accepting of evolution (within evident constraints they seem to assign; e.g. as they insist there has “not been enough time” for evolution to have done what it did on Earth). But if so, then they are being disingenuous. Because everyone knows that’s a form of creationism; indeed, Bible-believing Christian creationism at that. The Pope himself would endorse it.
If all of the comments came through separately and before you got a chance to reply, that still means someone who was not only unwilling to share his credentials and actual worldview after it had been made salient in the first place and balk at you characterizing his position before you had been given the opportunity to prove that you were willing to ask him what those views were (which if he wasn’t engaging in some disingenuous claptrap should have been disclosed anyways) and what his qualifications are. I hope he does have the honesty to clarify and respond to your point, but in my experience the move he just made is a rhetorical token to basically be able to argue that the big meanie irrational atheistic naturalist resorted to ad hominems and rudeness rather than engage with him. I hope I’m wrong. It still doesn’t excuse the mealy-mouthed behavior of making the very strong points he opened with, then backing off to much more defensible positions without admitting he was doing so or admitting you had a point in the first place.
In general, I have found that people who sound like Q make nods to polite debate but don’t do the thing that would actually facilitate it: Being willing to admit when a good point has been made and take that in stride, at least temporarily conceding what looks like a strong argument and then moving on from there. I get that when tempers and pride flare up it can be hard to do, but when it doesn’t happen, it simply prevents any forward progress from being made and it shows an unwillingness to engage in good faith.
I am inclined to agree with you. But willing to be charitable. 🙂
And I have responded to Richard’s challenge, multiple times, and resubmitted them over half a dozen times beginning one day after his initial challenge. But Richard conveniently refuses to post my response.
What Q means is, he has been spamming my comments box for a month now with going on over 100,000 words (sic) of rambling non sequiturs (still no cv; still not actually responding to what I actually said, and ignoring almost all of it; still throwing up giant word-walls of non sequiturs).
This is in violation of my comments policy.
I have not had time to consider whether to publish and respond to them. Even deciding which comments to publish is a labor, as he has submitted several overlapping rambling “books” worth of repetitious arguing. It is arduous in required hours to even read, much less evaluate, his endless rambling. Even a sample of it is enough to assess it as worthless. And his behavior so far is disinclining me to to bother publishing these “manuscripts.” I am not any tinfoil hatters’ publisher. He should produce his enormous books elsewhere and then throw a link here. Then people can decide whether to waste their time with him.
Let me make it easy for you then, Richard, so you can’t make excuses with your usual ad hominem rhetoric. Ignore all my other replies and just publish the 3 part abridged response I submitted yesterday, and then people can decide for themselves if it’s “worthless rambling”. Yes, it’s lengthy, but you accused me of offering nothing of substance, so in my response I take the time to go through almost all of your cited sources one by one, demonstrating how they don’t actually support your claims. Either way, you’ll have to come to terms with the fact that your central 1 in 10^41 “Lee peptide” argument for abiogenesis going all the way back to your 2004 B&P article is unequivocally false. A “Lee peptide” that beats the 1 in 10^41 odds and spontaneously forms somewhere in the universe will sit and do nothing (even in the “right environment”). This is because you have misunderstood what a “Lee peptide” actually does. As your primary source explains (Lee et al. 1996), the “Lee peptide” catalyzes a single, specific reaction: it connects two halves of a “Lee peptide” molecule (15 & 17 amino acids long) to make another 32 amino acid long “Lee peptide”. Thus, at minimum you need the equivalent of two “Lee peptides” to spontaneously form in the same location of the universe around the same time just to have a single round of “self-replication”. And even if that happens, then all you’ve accomplished is that you now have two “Lee peptides” molecules sitting around doing nothing. In order to have a second round of “self-replication” you need the equivalent of a third “Lee peptide” to spontaneously form in the same place and time, and so on. Of course, that’s just the minimum “on paper”. In the real world of chemistry, you need hundreds of thousands to millions of “Lee peptide” molecules (and 15aa & 17aa “Lee peptide” halves) to meet the concentration threshold just to initiate “self-replication”; as noted origin of life researcher Luisi explains at length (Luisi 2016. The Emergence of Life. Cambridge University Press. Ch. 3.4 “Self-replication – and the concentration threshold”: “Obviously, with one single molecule no real chemistry can be achieved”). This problem (and numerous others I discuss in my 3 part abridged response) applies to all your “P(x) + P(y) + P(z) ….” “self-replicator” scenarios—RNA, TNA, ANA, PNA origin, etc.—all of them.
“…you’ll have to come to terms with the fact that your central 1 in 10^41 “Lee peptide” argument for abiogenesis going all the way back to your 2004 B&P article is unequivocally false…”
No, Mr. Q. Because I have explained to you multiple times now—already—that you are not correctly describing the content of what my argument even is here. And I am done “re explaining” this over and over. If you haven’t paid attention by now, you never will.
For the last time: I do NOT simply claim that P(Lee) = P(Biogenesis). I account for all the other factors you mention. And I account for them mathematically. You keep ignoring this. And that’s just that. I cannot help you at this point. Nor, evidently, can you help yourself.
We are done.
What a surprise. The person who is emotionally motivated can write endlessly but can’t do the one thing that would show he had any intellectual honesty, integrity or charity: Just respond to a reasonable request. After having it publicly predicted that you couldn’t be polite or sincere, Q, you just did it anyways. That should scare you. It won’t because you’re in a delusion. Good luck getting out of it.
I will not be publishing any more comments here from Q. His submissions continue to violate my comments policy. He just continues repeating things already addressed or refuted, while continuing to evade all serious questions posed to him. Abuse of platform is all he has left.
Great article, Dr. Carrier! I’ll use it as a reference when discussing with apologists. You basically addressed the two main arguments they present: (1) scientists don’t know how life began; there are only speculations and (2) it is highly unlikely for life to form without divine intervention.
Dr. Carrier wrote:
“Yes, creationists can also be evolutionary biologists”
Usually the term “creationist” is used in reference to one that believes in a theological/biblical belief in creationism. If one does an honest reading of the bible (Genesis) can one walk away with believing it and also believe that all life forms on earth evolved and in the way described by evolutionists?
The only way I can see that makes sense if with someone that is more of a Deist, one who isn’t tied to any theology and holds a more liberal meaning of creation and the creation process.
Do you believe it possible for one to hold a literal interpretation of creationism as described in Genesis yet still hold to the scientific belief and explanation of evolution?
I haven’t mentioned the Bible in this conversation because neither has Q. I make no assumptions about his relationship to or interpretation of any religious books. But I think you are thinking of Young Earth Creationists. Many Christians and believing Jews are Old Earth Creationists, who accept evolution (in varying degrees). The mainline Catholic view, and the view of most Christian scientists, is the latter. Many are published evolutionary biologists. They tend to interpret Genesis allegorically or spiritually, not literally. To them it’s a treatise on values and intentions, not history or science. I do not know of any Old Earth Creationist who takes Genesis literally. But as I know people who hold wildly contradictory beliefs, I would not regard that as impossible; just so rare as to be a fringe outlier in the group as a whole.
Deists are also creationists. By definition, because indeed the only thing they allow the deity to ever have done is create our universe. But Q cannot consistently be a Deist because he does not merely advocate something other than nature creating our universe, but it later meddling billions of years later to produce life (he is against, or doubts, “metaphysical naturalism” and thus “natural biogenesis”). That’s substantially more than deism. It’s possible he thinks some mindless spirit power did it (like the Tao?), but even that is still a variant of creationism. Hence I stick to the latter descriptor. It covers all bases in his camp.
Richard, do you think Q may be this guy?
Or a fan thereof?
As promised, here is a link to my formal response: https://qsresponsetorcarrier.blogspot.com/2021/11/the-fatal-flaw-with-richard-carriers.html . If you don’t wish to post any more of my comments that is your choice. But you did devote an entire blog to slamming me, so you should at least post the link to my response, so people can read and evaluate for themselves. The response includes a summary of your arguments that I trust you will find a faithful representation of your views.
Of course it is not. It’s just more of what I’ve already pointed out: it ignores everything I actually said, claims I said things I didn’t, and continues to assert pseudoscience already here debunked, or non sequiturs that don’t address anything here said. But that’s fine. Any sane person can tell that for themselves by now.
Thank you for posting my link. If you can clarify how I’ve misrepresented you I will correct accordingly. You’ve indicated you don’t wish to post my comments, so if you prefer instead you can email me said corrections: qsresponsetorcarrier@gmail.com. I acknowledge my link does not address all the points you make here (which I will get to in time) and is currently limited to just the “Lee peptide”. But if there are any errors specific to the “Lee peptide” let me know and I will correct them (e.g., Am I incorrect in saying the “Lee peptide” is a polypeptide and not a PNA? Does the “Lee peptide” self-replicate in a way different from how I explain? Am I incorrect in asserting that self-sustained replication of the “Lee peptide” would require a continuous supply of 17aa & 15aa Lee peptide ‘halves’ with amino acid sequences identical to that of a “Lee peptide”? Etc.).
This has been explained to you multiple times now. If you still don’t get it, I cannot help you. None of what you are talking about matters to any of my arguments or calculations. It does not matter “how” the Lee peptide replicates; and I have explained why this doesn’t matter, and how anything regarding it has no effect on the math, too many times now to repeat myself further. Go back and read what I have written. If you still don’t get it after that, you are just too bonkers to ever get it.
Q wasted everyone’s time here, failing to correctly grasp the math or the science, and never listening. I will no longer allow any posts from him.
For sane and patient readers, the actual science of peptide self-replication is covered in these articles:
Liu et al., “Spontaneous Emergence of Self-Replicating Molecules” (2020)
Piette & Heddle, “A Peptide–Nucleic Acid Replicator Origin for Life” (2020)
Liu, “From the Origin of Life to Self-Replicating Peptides” (2011)
Right Richard. And yet you can’t answer the simple question I’ve posed repeatedly. You talk big, but don’t deliver
No worries, Richard. I don’t plan on posting anymore (Plus, there’s no point in posting on the myriad additional problems, including your misunderstanding of numerous studies that you cite, when you haven’t solved the most basic, fundamental problem of all). So don’t pretend you solved the “Fatal Flaws with Richard Carrier’s ‘1 in 10^41’ Argument for Abiogenesis,” when you’ve simply punted (https://qsresponsetorcarrier.blogspot.com/2021/11/the-fatal-flaw-with-richard-carriers.html). My “Open Challenge to Richard Carrier” remains unmet (https://qsresponsetorcarrier.blogspot.com/2021/11/qs-open-challenge-to-richard-carrier.html): Where does the continuous supply of specific, exact sequence 17aa & 15aa oligopeptides that are needed for sustained self-replication of a 32aa Lee peptide come from? What is the source of that, when there’s an added ‘1 in 10^41’ probability hurdle that must be met in order to make the 17aa & 15aa ‘building blocks’ EACH time you want to make a copy of a “Lee peptide.” A “Lee peptide” is not much use without a continuous supply of ‘building blocks’ from which to create more “Lee peptides.”
If you actually read the science, you’d know the difference between a technique used to accelerate a process for observation in a lab, and what is actually required in the field for specific chemical events to occur.
I understand completely, having numerous years of chemistry, biochemistry, and organic chemistry under my belt. By contrast, you still have yet to give a direct answer to the question. And that is but one single problem. There is nothing wrong with the myriad studies you cite. The science is sound. They simply don’t show what you think they do. Most are “proof of concept/principle” experiments to demonstrate a given replicating system can exist in principle, but that no one (including the investigators) believe could spontaneously originate on its own. For example, Lincoln & Joyce (2009) is a landmark study that demonstrated for the first time that self-replicating RNA enzymes—which do not exist in nature—can exist in principle, but Joyce publicly stated the replicating system is too complex to spontaneously form (which is a cross-catalytic replicating system comprised of six RNAs totaling 284 nucleotides: two RNA enzymes 76 nucleotides (nt) long that catalyze each other’s synthesis from a continuous supply that would be needed of four oligonucleotide substrates (52nt + 52nt + 14nt + 14nt). Tews & Meyers (2017) has absolutely nothing to do with the origin of life, but concerns viral RNA replication for vaccine production and requires a living cell to replicate (which we wouldn’t have). Wachowiusa & Hollinger (2019) is not even a self-replicating RNA, but a 150 nucleotide RNA polymerase ribozyme that does not “automatically self-assemble” from seven shorter RNA strands. You didn’t carefully read the study. The strands don’t automatically chain but had to be energetically activated using a condensing agent EDC that is not considered prebiotically plausible (which is no problem, because the investigators weren’t trying to demonstrate prebiotic plausibility). And it requires thirteen RNA strands—not seven—totaling 280 nucleotides to assemble the 150 nucleotide ribozyme (almost twice as many nucleotides!); including, the seven RNA strands to make the ribozyme itself, plus six additional RNA strands that serve as scaffolding “splints” that were specially engineered to correctly sequence the seven strands in the correct order, and help assemble them into a 150nt ribozyme (because they are not able to self-assemble on their own). All that only to give a paltry 0.5% yield (due to RNA misfolding causing “incomplete formation of ligation junctions” and “incomplete ligation of assembled junctions.” That is, the splint-assisted junctions still rarely produced correct “chaining” of the RNA strands). And this still does not yield a functioning ribozyme. The investigators, then, have to remove the six splints. And again, this is not even a self-replicating RNA.
And on and on we could go through study after study. But I don’t have time to spar with you, so “for all the marbles” let’s see if you can just solve the first one posed in my “Open Challenge” to you so we can bring this to a close (https://qsresponsetorcarrier.blogspot.com/2021/11/qs-open-challenge-to-richard-carrier.html): Where does the continuous supply of specific, exact sequence 17aa & 15aa oligopeptides that are needed for sustained self-replication of a 32aa “Lee peptide” come from?
*Listen, you can either solve it, or you can’t. If you can, then I will concede. But if you can’t, then you can’t. So which is it?
You are trying to run game here. We aren’t falling for it. Like trying to leverage “paltry yield” into “doesn’t happen.” Equivocation fallacy. And trying to pretend what some technicians do to accelerate a process for observation is what all of them do or that they all have to do. Cherry picking fallacy and non sequitur. These things are disproved by the articles I linked. They explain that none of what you claim is required. Key word required.
Biogenesis only requires the raw materials (the basic polymers and molecules) in abundance (and we now know they are indeed produced in abundance across the universe) and one success to get the process started. One. Just one. Out of billions and billions of failed tries. Everything else gets replicated and amplified from there. So none of your bitching about how many fails there will be matters. Enough tries, equals eventual success. That is what we are all talking about and have been talking about and that you keep ignoring and we keep telling you you are ignoring.
You thus are simply not addressing any of the research on biogenesis. Which is why no one in this field of research agrees with you. You can cite no one in support of your argument. I have cited numerous experts in support of mine. Go home, Q. You are wasting everyone’s time here.
Got it. You can’t solve the “Fatal Flaw with Richard Carrier’s ‘1 in 10^41’ Argument for Abiogenesis.” (https://qsresponsetorcarrier.blogspot.com/2021/11/the-fatal-flaw-with-richard-carriers.html), and you are unable to meet my “Open Challenge to Richard Carrier” (https://qsresponsetorcarrier.blogspot.com/2021/11/qs-open-challenge-to-richard-carrier.html). A “Lee peptide” does not self-replicate by ‘chaining’ amino acids together, but by connecting two ‘halves’ of a second identical “Lee peptide”—a 17 amino acid long half and a 15 amino acid long half—to make an identical “Lee peptide” copy, and it does this by means of an alpha-helical coiled coil structure. (You would know all this if you had carefully read the primary source article that you cite—Lee et al. (1996). A self-replicating peptide—so there’s no need for me to cite sources ‘in support,’ because the ones you cite already do!). So even if you have “enough tries, equals eventual success” to beat the ‘1 in 10^41’ odds and make a “Lee peptide,” so what? We now have a “Lee peptide” that will sit around and do nothing. It can’t self-replicate without a continuous supply of ‘building blocks’ (the 17aa & 15aa ‘halves’). And the combined probability of spontaneously forming a 17aa & 15aa ‘half’ with identical sequences as a “Lee peptide” is another ‘1 in 10^41’ chance event EACH time we want to make another “Lee peptide” copy. For sustained self-replication we must beat these ‘1 in 10^41’ odds continuously over and over and over and over and over and over again. That is the “Fatal Flaw” with your “1 in 10^41” “Lee peptide” argument for abiogenesis.
And anyone following this can now easily see for themselves how you continue to evade answering the question of how to solve this. You tell me to “go home” and stop “wasting everyone’s time,” when I have offered to do that very thing. All you’ve needed to do was solve the problem, and I said I would concede and you’d never hear from me again. But you can’t, because the truth is there is no solution. And that’s why your “1 in 10^41” “Lee peptide” argument for abiogenesis is “Fatally Flawed.”
That doesn’t make theism true, nor does it make naturalism false. It’s just an unsolved problem (one of many). I told you I’m not a creationist, but an evolutionary biologist who rejects creationism. Unfortunately, you’re the one who has wasted a tremendous amount of time arguing against something that I have not been arguing for. Throughout this entire thing, my only point has been simply to say that abiogenesis remains an unsolved problem in naturalism. That’s just a fact. And as much as I would like to say otherwise, the fact is that we have yet to empirically confirm or demonstrate (“prove”) abiogenesis, so we can’t state that it is an established science fact (unlike evolution, for which we enjoy substantial proof). It is still our working hypothesis that we ssume to be true, but at present it remains unconfirmed (“unproven”). That’s really my only point, and one that is not at odds with “the field of research.” But I do wish you the best and thank you for the engaging discussion.
I leave you with the words of Pier Luigi Luisi, a well respected origin of life researcher who also happens to be an acquaintance of mine. His 2018 news article “The Prebiotic Experiment” still aptly summarizes the state of the field (https://www.meer.com/en/44796-the-prebiotic-experiment). Luisi concludes:
“So, this is the point: not only the experiments with our tanks do not work, despite all possible ingenious variation of two generations of brilliant chemists – but we do not have a conceivable theoretical scheme on paper, on how the origin of life may have come about.
We have to recognize this hard fact. Maybe tomorrow some splendid bio-Einstein will discover the solution – nevertheless, for the moment, we simply don’t have the slightest idea on how life originated from non-life. Which, again, does not mean that we have to give up the research and resign to the existence of a mystery (a mystery is a problem that by definition has no solution). However, it is important to have an honest basis of departure.”
Your rambling word walls are wasting everyone’s time.
All people need do is read the articles I referenced. They already refute what you are saying. Just continually repeating the same refuted statements is pointless. Crazy even. Time to find a more useful occupation for your time.
The Luigi article you cite completely ignores PNA-world hypotheses and is therefore clearly out of date and uninformed. That you didn’t even notice this is illustrative of how you aren’t even paying attention here or taking anything seriously.