There is much discussion of late (typically gullible) of a recent article claiming that a 1972 prediction of the collapse of civilization between 2040 and 2070 from “MIT” is “on track.” This is scam logic that needs to be called out—particularly as it discredits its own cause (which is now: environmentalism), exemplifying a typical “shoot own foot” behavior from environmental alarmists who rightly want society to adopt wiser policies (indeed we should), but think scaring people with lies is going to succeed at that (pro tip: that not only won’t succeed, it will also discredit your entire project and thus actually undermine your achievement of it). The whole exercise teaches good lessons in critical thinking.
General Context
I’ve discussed attempts at promoting “secular apocalypticism” before. In Did the Environment Kill Rome? I explained why attempts to credit the Dark Ages to “abuse of the environment” are simply bogus; Roman civilization did itself in with bad intellectual, political, and economic decisions (while China, which did all the same shit environmentally, never suffered a tick for it). Likewise, in Facebook comments years ago I explained why modern America is not even close to being analogous to the Roman Republic or Empire (there has been no “assassination of the Gracchi,” nor any Caesar or Augustus—Trump even recently tried that, and the system soundly crushed his dreams, demonstrating that our system is, for all its corruption, still a far sight healthier, even though that’s despite continued treasonous Republican attempts to sicken it, which we still must not allow or ignore).
In Are We Doomed? I pointed out why “existential risks” are very unlikely, and are not the same thing as downturns and bad outcomes, yet these all tend to be conflated. It’s actually extremely hard to kill off a civilization; and almost as hard even to just collapse it (which is not the same thing). Total Thermonuclear War couldn’t even do it. We literally don’t have enough bombs—and never will. Nukes just aren’t destructive enough to pull that off (just ask actual survivors of Hiroshima…that’s right: survivors of Hiroshima). This doesn’t mean something like that wouldn’t be really bad, even mightily suck, or even launch us into another Dark Ages. But we’d be back in form in just a few centuries, just like last time, which is hardly even a visible amount of time biologically, much less geologically (even less, cosmically). “Wiping us out” is not the same thing as “Fucking us up.”
Civilization has been around for over six thousand years, and will likely be around for millions of years more. In that time-frame, a setback of a few hundred years is nothing. It will suck for those who must endure it; but it’s not going to be “the end of humanity.” And even that lesser outcome is highly unlikely. A temporary collapse (especially from something like that) is far more likely than an actual extinction event, sure. But most bad outcomes are not “Hello, Dark Ages.” To put it bluntly, “our rent will go up” is not “civilization will collapse.” Bad things (world wars, civil wars, economic depressions, global warming, pollution, et al.) rarely collapse civilizations. History proves this out; even relatively recent history. Those societies that make such bad decisions and thus get saddled with all the “bad things” they cause typically chug along anyway, continuing economic, political, technological, and scientific advancement barely abated—especially when we look at a time scale of decades rather than mere years (and given that civilizations have lifespans in the thousands of years, we should be looking at units of time in the decades, not mere years). Look back over the last several hundred years; even just the last century. Reversals and downturns, even fascist backlashes, simply don’t last long. Historically, it’s been extremely rare for an actual “collapse” event to actually come about (and that usually takes a century or two of gradual decay—it doesn’t just happen overnight).
This does not mean we can just ignore shit. “Oh that won’t kill us, so we don’t need to do anything about it” is dumbass logic. But one needs to be honest about the scale of a threat and the need to address it. Because dishonesty will signal to everyone you want to rally into action that you are a liar, and thus nothing you say is to be heeded—not even the unexaggerated true shit you could have been arguing instead. The worst thing global warming activists could ever do, for example, is claim “the global sea level will rise twenty feet in our lifetimes.” It actually won’t likely even rise more than two feet in two lifetimes—which is actually still really bad and something to be concerned about, but it doesn’t “sound” scary enough, so environmentalists lie, leading people to dismiss all alarmism about sea level rise, and thus discrediting even the truth they could have told instead. Shoot, foot. Animal rights activists do the same thing when they falsely represent exceptionally corrupt practices of disastrously managed farms as what every company is doing, or lie about how much grain and water is “wasted” on raising beef. Which lies cause most of their target audience to disregard them entirely, in place of what could have happened: rallying people to genuinely defensible reforms of animal industry.
The bogus 1972 “MIT Study” I’ll be talking about today is another species of this dishonest bullshit, created and promoted by fools who think lying about a threat will get people motivated to fight it—when, predictably, exactly the opposite has happened.
The Bogus So-Called “MIT Study”
Even what the study in question is commonly called is a lie. The very name of MIT evokes awe and respect, as if that university is somehow more authoritative on anything. So people call the 1972 “Limits to Growth” study the “MIT Study” even though institutionally MIT had nothing to do with it. The study’s authors happened to have jobs at MIT, and used some MIT computers. But no MIT Press published their work, no MIT department funded it, and MIT never endorsed it. It was not even a peer-reviewed scientific study. It is actually quite disingenuous to keep calling them “the MIT team” and their report “the MIT study.” The actual funders of the project were the Club of Rome, a society pushing the communist-environmentalist ideas of its eccentric millionaire founders (Aurelio Peccei and Alexander King), whose projects have been condemned by experts as dubious and amateurish. It is not surprising that the study got exactly the results its funders wanted. Which alone would not suffice to dismiss the study. But it is grounds for suspicion.
What exactly did this study argue? You can read it yourself (there is a free PDF of it here). It’s a convoluted mess, based on a lot of imprecise handwaving and complex computer modeling so sensitive to input assumptions as to be all but unfalsifiable. But the overall gist can be represented by this table (from page 124):
There is no actual date scale here, and the authors have defensively admitted the table produces no clockable predictions as to what year anything will happen. One might be misled into thinking that since the table begins at 1900 and ends at 2100, that the “middle” of the table represents the year 2000, but nope. This allows their claims to be safely unfalsifiable (at least until 2100, when I’m sure they’ll just move the goal posts and relabel that side of the table “2200”). Because we can never “check” any of it against reality—at least, any of it that matters. Because there is only one feature of this table that says anything remarkable: that at some point there will be a shocking “collapse” of the world population due to starvation—literal and figurative, as the table shows “food per capita” and “industrial output” suddenly collapsing some time before the world population does.
Take away this single feature of their table, and all it would show is that these things will steadily increase to some limit on a certain curve, with no collapse to be concerned about. This is important to note because the new 2020 “report” by Gaya Herrington, which claimed the study’s predictions were “on track” (thus inspiring all the latest chatter online, like the ridiculous Vox headline “MIT Predicted in 1972 That Society Will Collapse This Century. New Research Shows We’re on Schedule.”), only confirmed those boring and uninteresting growth curves—it does not actually “confirm” the predicted collapse, the only thing anyone would ever even bother citing the 1972 study for. So there is no sense in which the study’s predictions are “on track” that actually matters to fuck all. And this is to be expected, because Herrington’s study couldn’t verify the only remarkable claim that study made, because notably, observably, it’s been half a century now and nothing has collapsed. The only remarkable prediction the study makes has yet to find any empirical confirmation whatever. And really, it doesn’t even look plausible now (if it ever did; and by most accounts, it never did).
The entire outcome (the predicted “collapses” of “food per capita,” “industrial output,” and then, in result, “population”) is not actually tracked to year on this table, but is predicated on the S-curve overlaying the whole thing labeled “resources.” In other words, the report is just one giant “if, then” statement: if total global resources decline on that standard S-curve, then these collapses will occur at the designated point on that resource-decline S-curve. Ironically, almost all apologetics in defense of this report hinge on insisting this “if, then” statement is mathematically unassailable, which may well be true (I won’t bother challenging that; though some have). The problem is with the claim that global resources will actually decline that way. This is the difference between fiction and reality. To say “if available resources drop below a certain level, then civilization will collapse” is completely trivial, even asinine. Yes. Duh. If a stray star flew into the Earth, we’d be vaporized. If the moon suddenly turned into a billion lit rockets, we’d have a fantastical fireworks show. If an army of ancient psychopathic robots suddenly rose out of the Earth, we’d have problems. I can do this all day long. These are pointless assertions. Sure, they are all true. But their being true is trivial to the point of stupidity. What we want to know (what everyone is citing this study as declaring) is whether these things will actually happen. Is a stray star hurtling toward Earth? Will the moon suddenly turn into a billion lit rockets? Are ancient robots coming to get us? Will global resources drop to “that” level—whatever “level” that’s supposed to be?
And nothing—literally nothing—in that study evinces that it will. They produce no evidence entailing that outcome. It’s simply a presumption of the model. There is much winging about resource-decline indicators in the study, but none of it links their speculations, or even evidence regarding that, to the actual S-curve in the model producing the tabled results. This is the central key premise on which all their results hang. And it’s all bogus.
The Resource Bullshit
For example, the Limits to Growth study relies on the usual 1970s bullshit argument about “peak oil” (p. 58) claiming we will run out of oil in just 50 years (spoiler: we haven’t). In actual fact, We Will Never Run Out of Oil. All claims to the contrary are, quite simply, bullshit. As soon as an oil-based economy gets more expensive than, say, a hydrogen-based economy, we will simply shift to hydrogen. Exactly as happened before: wood became too expensive, until coal was cheaper, so we shifted to coal; coal became too expensive, until petroleum was cheaper, so we shifted to petroleum; now we are shifting toward natural gas; and soon solar, wind, and nuclear will take the baton. There is no evidence we couldn’t just, if we had to, switch everything to electric and supply entirely with nuclear power (and all arguments against that being viable are likewise bullshit—including this study’s own argument that we will “run out of uranium,” which is both false and moot: nuclear plant designs now run on the waste product of uranium plants and on other raw materials besides uranium). And I want to emphasize here that that’s all the case even without capitalizing the space industry; it will be far more the case when we inevitably do (a point I’ll elaborate on when I discuss agro-resources).
Worse, most of what they are talking about doesn’t even require shifting any industrial foundation (like switching from wood to fossil fuels, or from fossil fuels to nuclear, which we already know we can easily do when we need to). Their argument is in most cases even more ridiculous than that. To illustrate what I mean, let’s take their argument about “chromium” reserves. The same points follow for almost every other resource they talk about (while the rest fall to the same point just made about oil). Here is what they say about chromium (p. 61):
The world’s known reserves of chromium are about 775 million metric tons, of which about 1.85 million metric tons are mined annually at present. Thus, at the current rate of use, the known reserves would last about 420 years. [The] actual world consumption of chromium is increasing, however, at the rate of 2.6 percent annually. [So the] growth rate, if it continues, will deplete the resource stock, not in 420 years, as the linear assumption indicates, but in just 95 years. If we suppose that reserves yet undiscovered could increase present known reserves by a factor of five [then] this fivefold increase would extend the lifetime of the reserves only from 95 to 154 years. Even if it were possible from 1970 onward to recycle 100 percent of the chromium…so that none of the initial reserves were lost, the demand would exceed the supply in 235 years.
This is all trivially true. If demand just keeps increasing “forever,” eventually there won’t be enough. But there is absolutely no reason to believe demand will keep increasing “forever.” As I’ll point out shortly, Earth’s population is already expected to peak at 9 billion, and then drop (not rise), and entirely for reasons this study completely and utterly failed to predict—which is just one of many reasons we should chuck it in the bin. But that aside, we are already nearing 8 billion people—and chromium supply is fine (global reserves are at 570mt and the industry is actually worried about oversupply). Is it really that hard to imagine we can find 12% more chromium? That’s obviously already available with just a minute increase in chromium recycling. Much less mining.
And that is actually where all growth curves will end: once we reach a steady peak population, entailing a steady peak demand on all resources like chromium, we will then simply just operate on a recycling economy. The only reason we don’t already live like that is that it’s still cheaper to dig up and smelt more of it; eventually it will be cheaper to just smelt existing stuff we made with it back into chromium again. All the chromium we ever use, will just keep being reused. It doesn’t “vanish.” Chromium does not dissolve (unless you throw it into a star or something). We will never run out of chromium. There will always be plenty of it on Earth. And even if there weren’t, we’ll just ship it in from space.
Both facts hold for literally everything they use as an example. Either we will never run out of something (e.g. chromium, water, iron); or we will easily replace it with something we will never run out of (e.g. a nuclear-electric economy will eventually replace the fossil fuel economy). Even actually depletable resources—radioisotopes like uranium or selenium, which do indeed dissolve (into other elements)—are still in ample supply (we still today have hundreds of years left of uranium on Earth), and eventually will simply be resupplied from space. Radioisotopes used for specific purposes (e.g. medicine), if ever they run out even across the entire solar system and can’t be rebuilt with future atomic technology, we will just do without, or replace with some other tech (eventually we will have cures for cancer and scanners that can scry internal organs without using radioisotopes). And if we still need these as power sources thousands of years from now, and somehow we’ve gone through the entire solar system’s supply of nuclear fuels, we could simply switch to mass-scale space-based solar and run our civilization off “the” nuclear reactor in our system (up to and including even building a Dyson sphere if we must; and trillions of years after that when the sun burns out, we could just run on cosmic background radiation, by living in ultracooled simverses with slowed clocks).
So these “MIT Study” claims about a collapsing population caused by vanishing resources is 100% bullshit. None of those resources is going anywhere. There will always be enough to do what we need with it. And we will always have ways to get more. The only thing that will change is how expensive it is; but none of that variance will be significant enough to cause a collapse of anything. It will just have minor effects on our monthly bills and what “stuff” there is to buy. “Dang, a toolbox costs twice as much now” is simply not “Oh shit, civilization is collapsing!”
That’s all straightforward. But someone might note they really mean to be talking about the supposed problem of unending “economic” as opposed to “population” growth, such that even our inevitable stable population will still “burn through everything” chasing a continual economic “crack high.” That’s bullshit too. But I’ll get to that last. First let’s get through the rest of their bullshit.
Their Pollution Bullshit
All their model results, such as shown on the table I provided above, also show pollution peaking before population collapse as well, but they provide no scientifically coherent definition of “pollution,” nor any actual metric by which they are measuring it, or its effect (their model just counts “quantity” in the abstract, e.g. “ten times more” means, well, ten times more by whatever metric you imagine to be relevant). But carbon dioxide producing global warming is not the same thing as lead causing fatal or debilitating disease or even crime, which is not the same thing as a giant vortex of plastic in the ocean, and so on. Nor do any of these things just “go up” (world lead pollution, for example, has experienced substantial decline, and this is a trend for any pollutant we choose to combat). Nor do they have any negative relationship to population growth. Never in history has “pollution” moved any significant population’s growth rate below zero. For example, after the 14th century, lead pollution increased a million times, and still the world population exploded unabated—it did not “collapse” as this study’s model presumes. None of these things can be measured with the same metric, either as to “quantity” or “effect,” much less the consistently implausible metrics they assume in their model. So a line labeled “pollution” on this table and its calculated “effect” on population is total bullshit.
I could drop mic on this point here, and set aside this study’s total unscientific nonsense about “pollution” and instead look just at the role of food, industrial production, and population (as I will next). But their claim is that (p. 127): “the primary force,” sic, “that stops growth is a sudden increase in the level of pollution.” There is zero empirical or historical basis for any such assertion. They declare this will happen because at some point pollution will get so bad as to cause “an overloading of the natural absorptive capacity of the environment,” but nowhere in their study do they run any actual numbers predicting this ever happening with anything whatever. For example, they never show that lead pollution will keep rising until the whole Earth is so lead poisoned that billions of people start dropping dead. Explicably. Because, uhem, lead pollution didn’t keep rising like that. There is no evidence any pollutant is going to increase that far, or even could.
Even where they make an accurate prediction—right now, for example, the effect of CO2 pollution on global temperature looks to be expected to keep rising problematically—nowhere do they show this will go “so far” as to kill everyone, or even force population growth into the negative. To the contrary, historically Earth has thrived with life at CO2 levels far higher than humanity will ever produce (during the Cambrian Explosion it was ten times higher than even today; human industry won’t produce even half that). This doesn’t mean global warming won’t suck and create enormous problems making everyone’s life worse (so We Do Need to Do Something about Global Warming); but it also won’t have by itself any predictable effect on population growth. Ditto any other kind of pollution. The Limits to Growth study’s claim to the contrary is simply made-up bullshit, never demonstrated by any evidence or argument anywhere.
Their Food Production Bullshit
But let’s pretend that bullshit about pollution isn’t in the study. Let’s just look at food and industry growth and their effect on population. The study says (ibid.) their model predicts “the death rate rises abruptly from pollution and from lack of food” and “at the same time resources are severely depleted.” So, does that claim hold up? Not really. Yes, trivially, “if” food production declines, “then” that’s what will happen. But what reason do we have to expect food production to decline like that? There is no valid reason given anywhere in the study. It’s worth noting that the actual evidence indicates the reverse is going to happen: rather than a sudden collapse in our ability to feed people causing a decline in population, all evidence indicates population is going to level off and decline on its own. In other words, population reduction will occur before we hit any reduction curve in production. This flatly contradicts the “catastrophe” scenario the study is trying to sell us on.
And this is predicted by three things: an already-observed global decline in population growth rate (not caused by “starvation” but simply human choice); the already negative growth rate of many first world populations (not caused by “starvation” but simply human choice); and the matching observation that as third world populations advance toward first world conditions (and as the remaining first world nations approach the others in development), their population (as well as economic) growth rates also correspondingly decline. Which means the best way to stop population growth is to…end global poverty. But more to the present point, this also means we do not have to forever continue “increasing” food production. We only need to be able, really, to feed nine billion people (the peak we will hit, and then decline from, before 2100). We already feed eight. That’s a small increase in required productivity.
We are currently a bit behind on meeting that goal, but not for any unsolvable reason: the curves currently fall short primarily because of under-investment. “In the U.S. Midwest, wheat yields per acre have been rising at a decent 2 percent per year,” but, for example, “in parts of India or Eastern Europe, they’ve basically flat-lined,” not because they can’t grow more, but because they aren’t investing in doing so—because they don’t need to yet. This means we will easily meet the rising demand when we have to. We will simply invest in under-developed regions (e.g. we’ll get India and Russia up to par with the American Midwest). In other words, as hundreds of millions more people need food, industry will step up production to sell it to them. There is no evidence to the contrary.
And this is before we even consider exploiting space. I’ve hinted at this a couple times now. But it bears elaboration. Even if we just stay here on Earth, there is no looming agro-disaster (even global warming won’t produce one; all it will do is relocate bread baskets northward, not eliminate them, e.g. Saskatchewan’s production will eventually replace California’s—which will suck for California, but rock for Saskatchewan). But we aren’t even constrained to that option. There is a virtually unlimited resource opportunity to grow food in outer space, not only on other planets, but in space stations built for the purpose. Once you are off planet, the enormous cost of reaching escape velocity no longer hinders production (whereas dropping food onto Earth costs a relatively trivial amount of energy), and the quantity of basic resources in space (water, carbon, nitrogen) is vastly greater than on Earth.
Currently, imagining space industry entails imagining enormous increases in cost, due to the high expense of even reaching much less leaving orbit; but once we get past that initial capital investment—once we have entire self-sustaining colonies beyond Earth—“space industry” will no longer be as substantially burdened with that cost. It might still be more expensive than terrestrial agriculture (due to all that flying around the solar system collecting and moving around billions of tons of raw materials, plus the running “infrastructure” costs that we have to make up for that we get for free on Earth), but it won’t be prohibitively expensive. Because it is self-feeding: you will always end up with more resources, raw and processed, than you spent to get it. So this falls under the “my grocery bill might go up a bit” scale of “problems,” a far cry from “civilization will collapse.”
Their Industrial Production Bullshit
This all pretty much does in their whole “industrial production” collapse prediction as well, as that was entirely based on the combined bullshittery of diminishing materials and diminishing energy supply, which we have seen are bullshit squared. There will be no such disastrous decline in resource or energy availability. We will always have enough stuff to continuously feed and supply the nine billion people we expect there to be, and there will always be enough accessible energy sources for it all as well. The only things that will change are cost and distribution, and thus whether we will have a good world where everyone enjoys a decent living and environment (think, Star Trek), or a shitty one with massive income disparities, resource-hoarding, and misery-inducing heat, drought, war, and pollution (think, Blade Runner). And that’s no joke. Our decisions as a society will determine which it is, and we should care about that, indeed above almost all else when it comes to public policy. But let’s not sell people on that truth with a package of lies. Please. No more bullshit chicken-little scare tactics. Just tell the damned truth. Tell it like it is. And get people on board with taking action on that.
There are two aspects left to discuss relating to this: the first is whether we need perpetual economic growth (see a recent article on this debate in The New Yorker for example), a then-popular position this study was meant to argue against (the Limits to Growth study wants to convince people to stabilize “economic growth” to zero); the second is whether the only way to have “perpetual economic growth” is by “making more stuff” (and thus, tautologically, by “using more resources”), which is assumed by this study to be the case. I think it has been well demonstrated we could run a civilization fine on zero net economic growth if we wanted to; but it has not been demonstrated that we have to. The Limits to Growth study is thus simply wrong in its every core assumption. And one of the most overlooked ways it is wrong is in that assumption it has that the only way to have “perpetual economic growth” is by “making more stuff.” This is well known to be completely and entirely false.
One of the most obvious and important ways we realize economic growth is through enhancing labor productivity through innovation. For example, one of the reasons often noted for why the American construction industry has stagnated in its efficiency while every other industry has realized enormous gains in productivity is that it has under-utilized automation. They aren’t even using computers effectively, much less robotics and prefabrication. This is a failure of choice that is correctable. The effect of automating the construction industry more than we have would be a major gain in economic productivity without any net increase in “stuff” being made or “resources” consumed.
For example, consider a person who is still handling company invoices by hand vs. a person who relies on an efficiently-designed computerized invoice system fully integrated with suppliers and clients: the latter person can do the work of ten. Their productivity has thus increased tenfold. That’s even before we count up all the additionally resulting efficiency gains from fewer lost or mishandled transactions and the like, and reductions in waste (a lot less making of paper, shipping of paper, storing of paper, disposing of paper). Which all results in a net gain in economic growth. Which results not only from the computer used for this, but the writing of the software doing it. New ideas can always increase productivity to some degree; whether fundamentally (the hand-invoicer finally buying a computer) or incrementally (building a faster computer or writing a more efficient program or even just streamlining activities procedurally).
Since technology and innovation can perpetually increase labor productivity, “economic growth” can always be realized without any S-curve resource-drain imagined by the Limits to Growth study. More importantly, even if we somehow did reach a hard limit on this (some point where there just “aren’t” any more innovations that can increase labor productivity or industrial efficiency), that would have to be a world where, basically, AI is running everything and we are just all sitting on a virtual beach earning twenty percent. There would be no more economic growth. But neither would there be any need for it. Poverty would no longer exist. In the meantime, we’ll just stop or reduce doing things that become too expensive, which will be long before our depletion of resources would cause any “societal collapse” (e.g. we will never “over-use” chromium to the point of collapsing civilization; supply-demand effects on its cost will simply slow or reduce what all we do with it, and we’ll just glide on the topped-out level of its use).
Conclusion
What’s the point? Why assiduously argue for such prodigious bullshit for decades and decades? Even Herrington’s 2020 apologetic tripe claims that the predicted global collapse is now just ten years away! Based on…all that same bullshit. There is no way that’s all going to happen in “just ten years.” This is nonsense on stilts. One way to answer the question then is to go to the end of the study and ask what the actual “sell” is: what policy decisions are they using this bullshit to advocate? Some of what you find there is obvious stuff we should be promoting anyway, like improved pollution controls, environmental restoration investment, reduced income disparity. Others are less well-considered.
For example, they argue we could have a more efficient economy if we retooled manufacturing to focus on durability rather than disposability (e.g. make stuff that lasts longer, rather than stuff we have to keep throwing away and rebuilding), which may be true in some respects, but also false in others. A claim like this requires empirical testing, not presumption. And the answer is likely to be complex, and not reducible to their imagined universal rule. Recycling smartphones, for example, looks to be more efficient now than making “smart phones that last forever.” Conversely, near-eternal LED lights are far more efficient to manufacture and employ than rapidly-burned-through incandescent bulbs. There just isn’t going to be any “single simple rule” as to whether or how much we’d benefit from a durability-directed industry. It’s a neat idea, poorly thought out.
And chief among those poorly thought-out hypotheticals is something that smells of outright ideological claptrap: a desire to regulate economic investment to curb economic growth and control where consumers and investors spend their money, and forced rationing (e.g. pp. 163-64). Which is closer to some kind of command economy, where governments tell people what they can and can’t invest in or spend money on and how much, using some sort of magic crystal ball to discern what those limits should be, and some massively expensive socio-political apparatus for policing all this—that somehow, despite its vast (and thus attractive) power, won’t become disastrously corrupted and dysfunctional (think, every Marxist nation in world history). Sounds like a lot of really bad ideas, conjured from the armchair, based on no empirical evidence that it would even be viable, much less desirable. I’m not against government regulation of things. But it has to be soundly evidence-based and well-informed, not speculative pie-in-the-sky dreamery. For example, I am now convinced first world nations should now move to a Universal Basic Income (something this study never contemplates), not because it sounds like it would be cool, but because evidence now extensively backs it as a smart play even for the rich.
Overall, however, I think this study is now getting cited positively not for its crypto-Stalinism but for its supposed ability to bolster environmental policies, especially carbon policies. That was not its original intent I think; the study seems more interested in promoting a general command economy, with only an interest in environmentalism to the extent that it furthers that end. But now it’s a bludgeon for government regulation of greenhousing, which typically means the oil and meat industries as the usual targets (and the latter not even all that justifiably). But because this study is all built on bullshit, trying to sell people on those goals with this study is only going to doom your own cause. Because once people figure out you are arguing for your goals with bullshit (and they will figure that out right quick), they will no longer trust you even on the value of those goals. So please stop doing that. There are honest and productive ways to promote needed change on greenhousing. Please use those instead.
Nice blog post. Thanks for posting. Love your work
I wonder if you realize the following:
a) Hydrogen does not make itself, it requires oil to be produced, processed, stored, transported, etc. Hydrogen is not actually a fuel source either.
b) Wet-bulb temperatures are likely to exceed respiration rates of pretty much everything land-based. Humans, mammals, reptiles, amphibians, etc. Mass extinctions will result should this occur. So will mass starvation (long before wet-bulb temperatures kill us off) as food crops will virtually disappear. Most life is projected to disappear from the world’s oceans. We have already eaten our way through the majority of edible fish and critical levels of depletion of fish stocks have been measured throughout the world.
c) We are a lot closer to this reality then most realize, and projected to vastly exceed this biological temperature limit. At 4C increase, we’re already doomed, while projections and current trajectory indicate we are going to accelerate past 8.5C warming and even higher. In your lifetime.
d) Alternative energy sources are also not fuel sources. All still require oil inputs (and corresponding carbon emissions) for energy production. Alternative energy sources still don’t mine, process, smelt, assemble, transport or build the vast majority of minerals and ore that is produced to make the machinery of civilization (including alternate energy power). Nor does alternative energy produce the majority of the world’s dwindling food supplies. There is no reason to think that it ever will either.
e) You exhibit a profound lack of comprehension of the complexities and dependency of a world powered by oil energy. You also do not grasp the severity of deadly climate change and what it will actually mean for biological survival (not just human).
f) Since the publication to the Limits To Growth, enormous amounts of knowledge have been acquired about resource consumption and waste, energy sources and supplies, pollution and the effects industrialization have had upon the climate. You err greatly not being informed of these identified limitations and dependencies.
g) Nothing is “easily replaceable” as you supposed. Civilization was built with abundant and cheap resources, all of which has now been consumed. It is not only significantly more costly to build the same items as before, it’s also becoming more difficult to obtain the same essential resources required. Even outer space does not offer humanity a “resource” as supposed without great expense. You pose these claims without evidence, or as a technologist would without understanding the dependencies and energy requirements involved. It would be too easy to just say “it’s never been done” but it’s worth reminding your readers of this simple fact. We do NOT know that it can be done, in time, before the world runs out, overheats, or fails from some other reason. All are actually likely, all are actually happening right now, vs. the futuristic but empty promises you’ve supposed.
h) There are countless pollutants that have gone up and not gone down. Micro-plastics are now ubiquitous and found even in newborn infants and the remotest, deepest regions on the planet far from civilization and human impacts. Toxins exist everywhere and are still rising.
i) Food production does decline with hotter temperatures, so does protein (nutrition) content with major grain crops. This is already a present day problem. The effects of drought, extreme weather events, declining availability of essential fertilizers and phosphorous, and lack of distribution has shown to be critical weak points in the world’s food production. Present studies are predicting severe food shortages, not the abundance that you’ve proclaimed.
j) Space is dead and non-habitable, requiring enormous energy inputs and the efforts of an entire civilization to just minutely explore for exceedingly brief periods of time by a tiny few, let alone extract resources from. Space and what lies on and between the planets does not offer humankind salvation, only exploration at great costs and resource expense. Space is at present, another empty technological promise that will not deliver as proclaimed. Meanwhile, urgent and severe problems back here on Earth continue to worse, with the promises of space exploration unable to solve in any measurable way.
k) Chicken Little scare tactics aside, the resource and energy problems facing humanity are quite serious. Combined with deadly climate change (no hyperbole here) and humankind has a severe challenge that must be solved quite rapidly – or we will go extinct. This is not like the resource wars of the pasts, or the over-exploitation of the localized environment in our own history, this is a global, all-consuming problem of the utmost importance. We are in a crisis, what should be called an extinction-level event in reality that is unfolding on a single generation of people (the young) who will face a horrific unsurvivable reality if we continue to adequately grasp the actual reality unfolding right now.
THAT is the what people need to “get on board with”. What this actually means for the survival of our entire species – not just our own children.
a) Hydrogen does not require oil. It requires energy. It’s just a portable fuel that has to be produced just like gasoline, which also doesn’t make itself (you can’t drive cars on crude oil). This is why I described a hydrogen economy as based on “solar, wind, and nuclear.” When it becomes cheaper to make hydrogen fuels with nuclear power than to refine oil into fuels from mines and refineries, we will switch. That’s how economics works. It’s why we aren’t running ships on coal or driving cars with horses today.
b) “Wet-bulb temperatures are likely to exceed respiration rates of pretty much everything land-based” is simply 100% false. Don’t purvey bullshit here. Please. The Earth has had thriving land-based life with global warming far, far higher than human climate warming will ever approach—which is only a few average degrees centigrade, compared to a dozen degrees centigrade during the hottest paleo-biospheres.
And within a hundred years we will likely be reversing this with nuclear atmospheric converters anyway. Because when the problem becomes large enough people cannot ignore it anymore, then they will start spending what it costs to fix it—too late to right all the damage it will have by then wrought, and at greater cost than would have been required had they not acted so stupidly, but nevertheless. Because this is what has happened in every other case of global environmental concern (e.g. I discuss in the article lead poisoning; as also the bullshit claims about mass starvation). Which, incidentally, as always, will create jobs and sustain economic growth.
c) “We are a lot closer to this reality then most realize.” No we aren’t. Everything you just said is bullshit. Check the actual sources. Repeating bullshit like this is exactly what my article is warning you against. Stop that. Actually check your facts—reliably.
d) “All still require oil inputs.” Please read the article you claim to be commenting on. Especially what it says (and links to) about alternative energy sources like nuclear—as well as others (solar, wind, hydro, geothermal) and the exploitation of space (e.g. orbital solar; off-planet nuclear).
e) You seem to be the one who doesn’t know what you are talking about—and didn’t even read the article you are commenting on, as it already debunked several false claims you made (such as that nuclear power doesn’t exist or that anthropogenic global warming will even approach much less exceed that enjoyed by previous biospheres).
f) “You err greatly not being informed of these identified limitations and dependencies.” My article actually addresses all of that and proves it either false or irrelevant. Read the article. Don’t just skim it and pretend you know what it said.
g) I never said anything was easy. To the contrary, I said there would be hardships, and it is those hardships that warrant early action rather than late (quote, “This does not mean we can just ignore shit.”). And we actually do know what we can do: we literally already have the tech. All we have to do is divert costs to it instead of the current regime. As we did when we shifted from charcoal to coal, and from coal to petroleum, and from gas to electric. The difficulties will be no different than then. This tells me, again, that you didn’t read the article you claim to be commenting on.
h) “There are countless pollutants that have gone up and not gone down.” That isn’t relevant. You seem not to even understand what the debate is about even, much less what my article is saying. The issue is not whether pollutants are going up, or will ever go up. The issue is whether they will continue to go up “forever,” which past history proves false. I give several examples proving the point. You clearly did not read my article. I actually mention “micro-plastics,” for example. Read the article before commenting next time.
i) “Food production does decline with hotter temperatures.” Not globally. You are confusing local changes in productivity with global net productivity. Global warming will only move bread belts north and south. It will not “eliminate” them. This, too, I discussed in the article you lazily and incompetently didn’t read.
j) “Space is dead and non-habitable.” False. Unless you didn’t notice, Earth is in space. It’s not dead and non-habitable. We already have built our own artificial space habitats and have the tech to expand them and make them self-sustainable and base them almost anywhere. The only barrier has been willingness to invest in them. Eventually that financial will will exist—precisely when we need to invest in it. That’s how economics works. And it’s inevitable. As for the energy cost, read the article you lazily and incompetently didn’t read. I cover that.
k) This “must be solved quite rapidly – or we will go extinct.” This is 100% bullshit. I have a whole section on the extinction claim being bullshit. One you clearly didn’t read. Likewise, you clearly didn’t read my article because in it I agree we have a crisis to solve and sooner would be better—but not because of “extinction.” That is a bullshit exaggeration that actually encourages people to not take seriously what has to actually be done. You are destroying your own cause by making it look ridiculous and easily refutable.
You need to stop shooting yourself in the face like this and get on to doing what actually has to be done: make a factually accurate case for why action is needed. The costs in treasure and harm from inaction will be real; but they won’t be this exaggerated bullshit. Stop selling bullshit. That leads people to think our call for action is also bullshit, because it is based on a bullshit premise. So dump the bullshit premise. Pick up the actually true premise, and argue from that. My article is all about this, and hence even concludes with the line, “There are honest and productive ways to promote needed change on greenhousing. Please use those instead.” Read the fucking article.
Well said! Very timely too, at a time when trust in experts seems quite low (including media). They’ve been caught too many times shovelling us bullshit. We no longer trust them.
It would be foolish to succumb to a fallacy of false generalization. Just because some experts are unreliable bullshitters does not mean all or even most are. There is a reason few experts think the MIT Study is credible. Most experts aren’t bullshitters.
This is true even of “the media,” about which no such false generalization as you assert is sustainable either. See my Primer on Media Literacy.
“But we’d be back in form in just a few centuries”
I disagree with this. We have reached all of the easily found fuels and resources already. There is no way to bootstrap back from the level of technology in the “dark ages” to where we are now if we can’t get to the resources that are indeed there but only to modern mechanisms.
This is false. We would ramp up to where we are now in basically the way we did last time. Indeed, we’d be better positioned, e.g. a collapsed civilization will have at least oral (and possibly even detailed written) knowledge of such things as the basics of how to build a nuclear steam reactor, and could with trial-and-error build a working reactor within a century. Likewise redrilling oil wells, even at sea, re-opening abandoned coal mines, or building wind and solar generators (especially solar thermal, which requires no advanced electronics or special materials manufacturing).
And this is all without having to start at the stage of water power, like we did last time. Industry and factories used to run on waterwheels; and hydroelectrical power could easily as well, which actually gives us one of the highest EROIs in the world, limited only by supply, which won’t matter for a small recovering civilization. We could easily leverage from a hydroelectric economy to any other (e.g. relaunching fossil, nuclear, photovoltaic, etc.) and thus accommodate again a growing civilization.
And even if none of that were true (but, alas, all of it is true), a collapsed civilization would see a massive regrowth of biomaterial within a century or two (as it reclaimed fallow territory; we have the example of the Chernobyl region proving this happens quite quickly) which can be converted to charcoal (such as the Roman Empire ran on, in combination with water power) to run a traditional 19th-century-style steam economy. From which we can leverage up to any other tech we need to relaunch other levels of industrial power base. Just as we did in the 19th century.
How, Richard, if we don’t have coal that can be mined by hand easily and the same with oil? We already need technology to get to the gas, oil and coal we need now. I know that very well up here in Pennsylvania, where fracking is required, which takes a dozen trucks, pumps, synthetic liquids, etc. That also applies to coal where we need to take off hundreds of feet of overburden to get what we can.
Renewable energy is fine but if we don’t have the technology to make it efficient, then we have nothing. It is the consistent energy density of coal, oil, gas, that have allowed us to make those high tech things.
Nuclear steam reactors need alloys that we cannot make easily and need incredibly high temperatures. The same is for hydroelectrics, etc all needing alloys to be able to run the turbines and the attendent dynamos. We also need those alloys to do ocean oil rigs.
in the 19th century, we went from charcoal to coal and oil, and from iron to steel and then to special alloys. there is nothing more to “leverage” with.
We don’t need coal. The Roman Empire ran on wood and water. So did 18th century civilization. And they didn’t even know about electricity, which can be generated even by animal and human power (as well as water power, geothermal, and biofuels, e.g. wood, grass, charcoal).
You seem to be confusing scale with leverage. The issues you describe are a product not of ability but of scale: we have to supply billions of people running a hyper-complex consumption economy; neither of which is necessary to develop back into a nuclear or solar or hydro regime. Take away those two requirements, and scaling back up is easy.
And I agree some renewables (solar and wind and human/animal) are not sustainable ways to run a civilization. But others are (geo and hydro, up to a certain population scale; and nuclear, which is all but endlessly scalable), and one can use the low EROI technologies to gear up to the high EROI technologies, exactly as we already did (e.g. you can use solar thermal to reestablish a nuclear regime; after which, you no longer need the solar-thermal). And middle EROI tech will eventually be available anyway: biofuels, e.g. wood, grass, and charcoal, will be in ample supply within a century, and can be “burned down” to scale up to high EROI tech within the ensuing century.
Nuclear steam reactors don’t “need” the tech you describe. Nor do hydroelectric plants. They benefit from them. Not the same thing. A nuclear steam reactor can be made out of junkyard trash even; as obviously can any dynamo. The rest is just development (using the resulting energy budget to scale up safety and efficiency), which will include access to needed elements, which will first be accessible by cannibalizing the wreckage of civilization (like, say, the historical ruins of nuclear power plants, and associated waste yards, and abandoned mines), and then by actually resumed resource hunting (building new mines and factories).
For example, waterwheels ran 18th century manufacturing (including of steel, which we have been making since 1800 BC even without coal or water power). But the same tech can turn a network of junk copper around a core of junk iron magnetized by simple mechanical effort and thus generate electricity. No special tech needed. As industry thus blooms, producing and deploying any further special tech will then merely make the machines safer and cheaper and more efficient.
This is what “leveraging” means. It’s what we did originally. And it will be even easier the second time, because we already will have the knowledge and most of the materials already (as the ruins and dumps of civilization won’t vanish but will be abundantly available for salvage).
tell me how wood fires a bessmer furnace.
Same way pre-modern societies did it. You convert wood to charcoal. Then use the charcoal in a properly constructed furnace with a billows. The Bessemer Furnace has actually been in use in various forms since the 11th century, long before fossil fuels were employed and Bessemer patented his version. But you also don’t need a Bessemer to forge steel. It’s only a process for making steel that is more efficient. Humans have been making steel for almost four thousand years, without Bessemer-style furnaces. And in a post-apocalyptic future, we will be able to skip the three thousand years of crucible and bloomery techniques, because knowledge of Bessemer techniques will remain available. We will jump right back in to high efficiency steelmaking within a generation.
You also don’t “need” steel to scale energy sources, so you don’t “need” Bessemer furnaces. A working steam engine was developed by Hero in the first century, with fully adequate metallurgy and fitting precision (I discuss this in The Scientist in the Early Roman Empire, index), all without steel (though he had steel, and if motivated, could have used it). And a simple nuclear reactor is just another steam engine. Likewise a solar thermal generator. None of these things require steel. They benefit from it. Not the same thing.
you lost me with the cost of “space” activities. No one knows if exploring beyond the Earth or Moon gravitational influence is survivable.
We certainly do know that it is survivable. The only question is one of engineering: what construction of vessels or stations is needed to ensure it.
Regarding your comment on sea level rise, potholer 54 beat you to it and did a much more detailed explanation. It’s titled ” If ocean levels are rising why cant we see it”. He’s done a fantastic job debunking many other myths regarding science based topics as well. Particularly on climate science.
Did you mean to include a link of some kind? Because I’m not sure you aren’t being duped here by yet another crank on the other side. Sea level rise has already occurred (it is well documented empirically) and is inevitably going to rise further even on the most generous estimates of current rates of global warming (entire nations now are being threatened by this). See the links in my article above. And the links here in this comment.
https://youtu.be/WTRlSGKddJE
He’s arguing from a pro science perspective. I just meant that he does a thorough account of what you already said, that sea levels are rising just not to the extent that extreme environmentalists argue it will, nor what nay sayers say that since it’s obvious that Manhattan isn’t under water climate change is false.
I’m not sure what you mean. I won’t have time to watch a half an hour crank video. So do you mean to say he does argue “since it’s obvious that Manhattan isn’t under water climate change is false” or that he doesn’t argue that? If he argues that, he’s a crank (the argument is a non sequitur, of the straw man variety). If he doesn’t argue that, then what relevance does his argument have to the present discussion?
FYI, Richard, the Youtuber potholer54 is not a crank. Not in the least. I’ve been subscribed to him for many years.
He is if he argues “since it’s obvious that Manhattan isn’t under water, climate change is false.” And if he doesn’t argue that, what relevance is his video here? If it just repeats my own point, then it’s redundant and we don’t need to watch it. If it makes that crank argument, then I’ve already refuted it and we don’t need to watch it. So what is the point of it? Why is it being cited here? Does it helpfully add to my point? Or does it just repeat it? I think it’s just not been articulated clearly enough why this video is being linked here.
You don’t watch YouTube videos. I get that. But don’t knee-jerk.
I can 100% guarantee that the quote is mined out of context.
I haven’t watched the specific video that Tyler linked (unless I watched it as part of my subscription feed when it was released), but potholer 54 is a reliable agent.
Why was the video cited? Undoubtedly to amplify on your point.
According to the “About” section of his YT channel, ” I am a former science journalist (see the “Who I am” video) with a degree in geology.”
He is a science/climate change educator, rumor and misinformation-debunker and fact-checker and is entirely legit.
Your readers would do well to follow his channel.
Update: Just had the MIT article cited at me, indirectly, by a Stalinist. As in, straight up Holodomor-denying, Grover Furr-citing, Stalinist. So… yeah, it’s definitely feeding those who want a command economy.