Kipp Davis has composed three videos about my work that now amount to dishonest slander. Because once you make mistakes and find that out—but keep repeating those false statements anyway, rather than correcting them—you’ve transitioned from merely being in error to being a liar. One might insist instead that Davis is just phenomenally incompetent, but at this point, he’s had the truth demonstrated to him repeatedly, so incompetence is no longer a plausible explanation of what he is now doing. Nevertheless, for most of this article I will assume Kipp Davis is merely incompetent. I will use that framing for his third video to teach you how real scholars actually approach questions like ours, and contrast that with the careless, amateurish, armchair methods Kipp Davis has chosen to employ—for reasons yet to be explained; he has a relevant PhD, so he knows how to do this properly, and indeed will be lying again if he disagrees with anything I say here as to the proper scholarly methods he should be deploying instead. His dissertation advisor and examiners would bow their heads in shame.
Background
This all started with Davis’s first video about On the Historicity of Jesus, mainly focused on my definitions section and Element 5 of my chapter four on pertinent background knowledge (which is material all equally compatible with the historicity of Jesus; Davis repeatedly mistook it as arguing against the historicity of Jesus). There I assumed he just didn’t read my work at all carefully, thus explaining why he got everything about it wrong, and attributed arguments to me I never made, and ignored the arguments I actually did make, and actually ended up confirming what I argued while weirdly thinking he had refuted it: see Kipp Davis’s Selective Confirmation and Ignoring of Everything I Actually Said in Chapter 4 of On the Historicity of Jesus. I gave some advice there that would prevent him making these same mistakes in ensuing videos. He ignored my advice. In his second video he doubled down on all the same mistakes: see And Then Kipp Davis Fails to Heed My Advice and Digs a Hole for Himself.
In Davis’s third video, which he says is his last, he opens with reiterating his false claims about my arguments in Element 5 of OHJ. I have since confirmed over thirty experts in Hebrew or the Dead Sea Scrolls agree with me and not him, including his own dissertation advisor. So now you know you cannot trust his misrepresentation of what I argued or its competence or merits. I already addressed his false statements about the evidence and my arguments in my previous two responses (especially regarding the Wisdom of Solomon and 11QMelchizedek). And I documented the thirty-plus experts siding with me against him in my previous article, Some Controversial Ideas That Now Have Wide Scholarly Support. So his claim that my arguments are “incompetent” is decisively false. This represents Kipp’s first abject failure as a scholar in all these videos…
Rule One:
- Real scholars check what the peer-reviewed literature says about a dispute before claiming to know what that is.
Below, we will see Davis make this mistake again quite centrally in this new video. But in general, if you do not follow this rule you cannot claim to be a competent scholar. Thus the fact that Kipp didn’t check whether dozens of Scrolls and Hebrew experts actually affirm my same conclusions in Element 5 demonstrates gross incompetence. By calling me, instead, incompetent, he is absurdly claiming dozens of his expert peers incompetent—including his own dissertation advisor! An own-goal more catastrophic to Kipp’s credibility I cannot imagine. The fact is, everything I argue in Element 5 is mainstream and accepted by numerous specialists in these materials and languages. At no point do I “incompetently” treat any of it. But by not checking to see if his peers agreed I was right, Kipp demonstrates he’s the one who is incompetent here.
Davis’s second abject failure as a scholar is not correctly representing what I argue—at first I thought, because he was reading incompetently (rage-skimming, missing things, making assumptions not in the text); now I think it’s because he lacks professional ethics. He decided not to honestly represent what I said and didn’t say; I guess for monetized clicks? (I cannot guess what other reason he has.) Because he was repeatedly informed and given multiple opportunities to correct his errors. A scholar who acts like this is a pseudoscholar. He is not performing his moral duty as a scholar to understand and correctly convey to his viewers and readers the peer-reviewed literature of his own field. So…
Rule Two:
- Real scholars take care to correctly understand and convey the peer-reviewed literature they are discussing, and agree they are morally obligated to correct any substantive mistakes they make when doing that.
I’m not talking about poor wording or oversimplifications or other minor errors easily corrected without substantive impact. I am talking about substantially misrepresenting the literature, saying it says things it doesn’t, claiming it didn’t say things it does—serious errors that any honest scholar would correct.
Secondarily, it is unfortunately accepted in the field to botch an argument (ignore crucial evidence and arguments while claiming to have responded to them, as Kipp repeatedly does in all three videos), but that is still not considered effective. Every honest scholar alive will respond to such a rebuttal, “You have failed to meet the argument, Sir.” Indeed, most scholars would agree that this is suspicious and unworthy behavior. I dare suspect even Kipp Davis would say that—unless cornered and forced to defend this as actually ethical, lest he convict himself. But then, I imagine, he will switch masks and argue for it being unethical as soon as that same behavior is directed at him (his religious background evidently never conveying any sense of The Golden Rule).
Element 6
In this third video, Davis moves from Element 5 to my Element 6, which states simply, “The suffering-and-dying servant of Isaiah 52–53 and the messiah of Daniel 9 (which, per the previous element, may already have been seen by some Jews as the same person) have numerous logical connections with a man in Zechariah 3 and 6 named ‘Jesus Rising’ who is confronted by Satan in God’s abode in heaven and there crowned king, given all of God’s authority, holds the office of high priest, and will build up ‘God’s house’ (which is how Christians described their church).” I go on to reference a later Element 40, where I expand on this from the perspective of the first-century Jewish interpreter Philo of Alexandria. I only commit one actual error here: I should have made clear here that I make an argument for that point there, rather than give the mistaken impression it required no argument. I assumed readers would check the referenced section to learn that, but that assumption can mislead readers like Kipp who are complaining about the contents of a book before they have completed it.
In any event, I made a prediction of the much more serious mistake Kipp would make here before his video came out (proving I have psychic powers…er, I mean, proving I have his number, and sussed the incompetent methods he keeps using, and thus I could easily predict what mistakes he would make):
I fully expect Kipp will continue not to heed my advice. And so I will make a prediction. Just wait and see…
In his third video I know he will critique arguments in Element 6. Since he is critiquing the book before finishing it, he hasn’t read Chapter 5 and Element 40 where I make an argument for a point in Element 6 that I there state as established already (I should not have; I should have put qualifying language and pointed out the case is made in the next Chapter, so I have that marked already for a future revision): the fact that some Jewish interpreters were regarding Jesus as the Anatole in Zechariah 6 rather than (as was likely intended originally) Zerubbabel.
The position I take is actually normal in the field, not something I made up. But Kipp is lazy. He won’t follow Rule 1 of Critical Thinking and ask, “Is this a position any other scholars take?” He will just assume he knows the answer, and take the pose that no “competent” scholar would think this. I will then cite at him all the very competent scholars who think this (and their very sound reasoning).
So he will have put his foot in his mouth twice again: by not checking the literature, and thus exposing again his incompetence by wrongly accusing me of incompetence; and by not noticing, again (per my subsequent comment), that we are talking about Jews who were looking for messianic messages in these passages (pesher), and not Jews who were looking for their original historical meanings.
As someone who is a Dead Sea Scroll expert, to not understand how pesher works is astonishing to me. And I know he does know that. He just “forgets” all he knows whenever criticizing me. For whatever reason.
Dollars to doughnuts he does this. Just watch.
Bingo! He did it.
Davis Didn’t Check The Literature
Of course I could first point out that Davis completely ignores the actual claim I make in Element 6: which is to the possibility of someone reading the texts as I suggest; I do not claim that’s how everyone read them. I don’t even argue anyone did; only that they could have. My exact words: “I am not here declaring Christianity was born from making this connection, only that it is certainly plausible to hypothesize it was” (OHJ, p. 82). I then say “I will provide further evidence for that being the case in Element 40,” which Kipp declares he will ignore. That causes him to make an even greater mistake. But we’ll get to that. I also make an argument to probability in Element 6 (“Such a coincidence cannot be ignored … Would Christians really have been that lucky, that all this connected so obviously?” p. 83) that Davis ignores. His theory thus requires a highly improbable coincidence that mine does not; which entails my theory is more probable than his. Davis never mentions this argument, nor responds to it. So every honest scholar alive will respond to his rebuttal, “You have failed to meet the argument, Sir.”
But let’s set that all aside (even though all that destroys Kipp’s entire video already). Instead, let’s focus solely on his central claim: that I am “wrong” because the original authors of Zechariah meant the Anatolê to be Zerubbabel, not Joshua (Jesus). This is a display of Davis’s incompetence, first, because neither I nor anyone who would be constructing a pesher out of Zechariah is talking about what “the original authors” meant. To the contrary, the entire point of pesher (Christian or Qumranite) was to read new secret meanings out of scripture that foretell future (or recent) events, not long past ones. By definition, composers of pesharim do not care about the original historical meaning; that is not what they are attempting to discern. By definition they are trying to find a different meaning, one they can claim is to happen at the end times.
So no one who constructed a pesher out of Zechariah 6:12 could have thought the Anatolê there was Zerubbabel, because he’d been dead for centuries. It would have to be some future figure. Philo thinks it refers to no human at all, but a cosmic eternal superbeing (more on that shortly); but, proving my point, he didn’t think it was the historical Zerubbabel. And thus neither would any messianic interpreter of the passage. That is the point of Element 6: I am talking about what someone could think about Zechariah 3 and 6 if they applied the logic of pesher to it. Since that is my actual argument, and Davis never responds to that argument, his third video is actually completely non-responsive to my Element 6.
But an even more devastating display of Davis’s incompetence is his failure here to engage Rule 1: real scholars check. If he had acted like a real scholar, and not like an armchair amateur, he would have found that what I am saying about Zechariah 6:12—that the Anatolê appears to be Jesus there now, not Zerubbabel—is a standard conclusion in the field. It is not only accepted without argument in peer-reviewed studies by distinguished scholars, it is smartly argued for in others. Kipp Davis is supposed to know this. Any competent scholar would either already know it (because, being an expert, they are familiar with the literature and thus know things like this) or would soon know it because, knowing they haven’t checked so as to know, they would first ask themselves, “Wait, is that what any scholars besides Carrier say?” They would know they had better check first before publishing a video lambasting as incompetent what is in fact a widespread expert conclusion of their peers.
This is how I conduct myself. Of anything I think to say in rebuttal on some scholarly point like this, I always ask, “Wait, is that true?” And I check first to make sure. That is probably the single most significant thing that makes the difference between an expert and an amateur. And somehow, despite earning a PhD in this field, Kipp never learned it—or conveniently forgets it, for clicks or whatever. You’ll see this difference between Davis and I in how much scholarly research and citation I have done on this debate, and how little he has done. I checked dozens of scholars and studies before accusing Davis of being incompetent; and I only could be sure he was incompetent after I found out, having checked; and now I am citing and quoting them to prove it. I did that in my last article. It’s about to happen again right now.
In fact I did that already, when Neal Sendlak incompetently tried to make exactly the same argument as Kipp (that’s how far Davis has abandoned his skills—he is conducting himself as poorly now as an amateur internet crank). As I pointed out then, there are scholars who simply accept my conclusion on this without even seeing any need to argue for it. For example, in The Johannine Exegesis of God (de Gruyter 2004), Daniel Sadananda simply says “in Zechariah 6 God commands” Zechariah “to crown ‘Joshua’ the High Priest as King” (p. 31), and hence the Anatolê. He cites several scholars concurring. For example, Wayne Meeks, who in The Prophet King: Moses Traditions and the Johannine Christology (Brill, 1967) explains that yes, originally that passage may have referenced Zerubbabel but by the time of the first century that reading was lost, and the passage at that time said “to crown Joshua the High Priest as king” (pp. 71-72). This understanding of the passage also passed peer review without comment in my book, too; and again in Raphael Lataster, Questioning the Historicity of Jesus (Brill, 2019), pp. 303-08.
Indeed, I am not aware of anyone in the peer-reviewed literature who discusses this passage in its later messianic context (as opposed to its original context, or that of Jews trying to discern that instead of its possible apocalyptic sense) who disagrees with my reading here. Quite simply, most experts would agree Philo (as many other Jewish exegetes) probably read Zechariah 6 as declaring Jesus the Anatolê and not Zerubbabel. But since, even after being warned to check, Davis still ate his foot on this, and since he might attempt the slimy apologetic tactic of claiming only “a few obscure scholars” say this (Meeks!?), let’s groan and accumulate citations just to beat Kipp’s horse dead. And do click the linked names. These people are not randos. Ready? Here we go:
- In the peer-reviewed Journal of the Adventist Theological Society 5.2 (Spring 1994), Frank Holbrook, once even editor of that selfsame journal, wrote “Christ’s Inauguration as King-Priest,” wherein he assumes that by the first century the Anatolê came to be understood as Joshua, regardless of what was originally intended.
- In the peer-reviewed Journal of Biblical Literature 103 (1984), Bruce Malchow wrote “The Messenger of the Covenant in Mal 3:1,” in which he points out this verse was “probably originally a description of the messianic crowning of Zerubbabel,” but “after he disappeared and the high priest became the political leader of the community, someone altered the text and substituted Joshua’s name for Zerubbabel’s,” and “Thus, the passage became a description of a royal priest,” and therefore the Anatolê was switched from its original meaning, as a title of Zerubbabel, into a title of Jesus—all before the time of Philo.
- In the peer-reviewed Hebrew Annual Review 11 (1987), Beth Glazier-McDonald wrote “Malʾak habbərît: The Messenger of the Covenant in Mal 3:1,” in which she quotes Malchow (above), and concurs in taking this verse to by then have been understood (indeed, even intentionally) as referring to Jesus, rather than Zerubbabel.
- In the peer-reviewed Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 34.2 (June 1991), Meredeth Kline wrote “The Structure of the Book of Zechariah,” in which he argues that Jesus had come to be understood as the Anatolê, unifying the offices of king and priest (and subsequent references to there being “two” were regarded as the two offices, not two persons, thus eclipsing any role there may have originally been for Zerubbabel).
- In The Book of Zechariah (Eerdmans, 2016), from the New International Commentary on the Old Testament, Mark Boda observes regarding the Anatolê that there is “evidence of later revisions which shifted this original hope” in Zerubbabel “onto other royal figures from the Davidic line or the present priestly figure of Joshua” (pp. 384–85), and that some scholars “have interpreted this reference to ‘Sprout’ [in the corresponding Hebrew] as identifying Joshua, especially since the prophetic sign-act involved placing a crown on the head of Joshua in 6:11 and the continuation of the speech refers to a priest on his throne (6:13)” (p. 396), and, again, the ‘harmony between the two’ then meant the priest and his throne or between his two roles (p. 397). Boda cites many examples of scholars arguing this, and dismisses these views only in respect to its original historical meaning, on which I agree (since I was never talking about its “original” meaning).
- In Behold Your King: The Hope For the House of David in the Book of Zechariah (T&T Clark, 2009), Anthony Robert Petterson concludes regarding the ‘shoot’ in Zechariah 3:8 and 6:12 that “the text now seems to identify Joshua as the Shoot” so “it is a logical supposition the names were switched” and “the context further supports this,” e.g. a crowning is unexpected for a priest, etc. (p. 101).
- Petterson cites Carroll Stuhlmueller, Rebuilding with Hope: A Commentary on the Books of Haggai and Zechariah, from the International Theological Commentary (Eerdmans, 1988), p. 79, as concurring on this point.
- Harry Orlinsky and Norman Snaith, in Studies on the Second Part of the Book of Isaiah (Brill, 1967), conclude that “the natural meaning of the Hebrew is that Joshua is the Branch,” based on “my servant” of Zech. 3:8, also there called the Branch (Anatolê in Greek) and “they are of the opinion” that in the received text of Zech. 6 “apparently Joshua is the Branch,” because “the whole section has evidently been interpreted later differently from what was originally intended” given the many variants across the Hebrew and Greek (pp. 246–47).
- Cameron Mackay, in “Zechariah in Relation to Ezekiel 40–48,” Evangelical Quarterly 40 (1968), argues that “in Zech. 6:9-15 the symbolic investiture of Joshua-Jesus as the Branch is completed with crowns…displaying the royal role of one who ‘shall sit and rule . . . a priest upon his throne’,” asserting “the kingly and priestly character of Messiah, as it is asserted in Ps. 110:4,” arguing that the text might have originally had Zerubbabel here, “the name being changed when it became evident that the actual head of the nation was the high priest” (p. 208).
- Margaret Barker says that developmental story is pretty much the dominant view in her field, in “The Two Figures in Zechariah,” Heythrop Journal 18 (1977), pp. 38–46, where she gives detailed arguments for it possibly even being the original reading (“the title the ‘Branch’, given apparently to Joshua” in the first place, pp. 41–42).
Some of these scholars also observe that in the commentary of Didymus the Blind it is simply taken for granted that Zechariah 6:12 names the “Jesus” there the Anatolê (and thus, of course, he imagines it anticipated Christianity). Notably, Didymus comes to this conclusion from linking this passage to Jeremiah 23:5–6, which links the Branch to Jehozedak, not Zerubbabel—hence explaining (to Didymus’s satisfaction) why the figure named in Zech. 6:12 is Jesus “son of Jehozedak.” We can dismiss that as Christian exegesis. But it still demonstrates how easy it was to read that verse this way, and thus how easy it would have been to find in that verse a key passage for the original pesher foundational to Christianity, exactly as I argue in Element 6. That numerous modern experts agree, on entirely objective evidence as well, only seals the point.
So my conclusion, the one Davis slanders as “incompetent,” is in fact so mainstream that it has passed peer review no less than twelve times now. And that’s just as far as I found in a day’s work at a library. There are no doubt countless more examples I could add. But how many times do we need it to pass peer review before Davis will admit the truth? This is a competent conclusion of bona fide experts, many of whom more expert and prestigious than he and I put together. So this is not me “being incompetent.” It’s him being incompetent. I’m repeating a conclusion so well established in the field that (as we saw) it can even be stated without argument, and is argued so convincingly across a broad range of Zechariah scholarship as to leave no other conclusion likely. Davis then acts like an incompetent amateur and fails to check the literature before asserting an argument that has already been refuted by countless of his superiors.
As another sign of his incompetence (let’s charitably assume), Davis also tries to argue that no one can read “rising” out of Anatolê because it merely translates “shoot,” but shoot is figurative for rising (“spring up from below”), and this was obvious to ancient readers (see comments below for a confirming study), especially any who were looking for a pesher reading of this text, particularly an apocalypticist scouting for inspiration or metaphors for a resurrection (indeed Paul even uses a seedling metaphor to explain resurrection). Davis acts like I said this was what the authors of the Bible meant. Um. No. I very clearly articulate that I am speaking of a hypothetical Christian looking for a hidden pesher in this text (OHJ, p. 83). As shown across the last two articles and this, Davis routinely reads my work in bad faith, and falsely reports my arguments, then rebuts the fake arguments he invented rather than the actual ones I made. But unlike Davis, I actually have evidence for my (actual) hypothesis. Like, say…
What Philo Says
It gets worse for Kipp when we go and look at the argument he declares he will ignore. Only incompetent scholars declare they will ignore arguments they purport to be rebutting. And the reason that is incompetent will now become clear with this very example. The argument I present in OHJ for Philo reading Zechariah as I suggest is an argument to a probability (so possibility arguments can’t rebut it), and it is quite strong. Any contrary interpretation requires assuming not only several very improbable coincidences that mine does not (rendering any other interpretation than mine very improbable: see The Difference Between a Historian and an Apologist), but it also requires going against a wide variety of mainstream peer-reviewed scholarship (as we just saw). Is that likely to be the correct position do you think? Or is mine? You do the math.
Philo interprets Zechariah 6:12 as naming what he elsewhere calls the “angel of many names,” the “firstborn” Son of God, and God’s celestial “high priest,” Anatolê. And his reasoning is that God made this angel to “rise up” (anatelei, the verb form of Anatolê) to rule and create the universe (OHJ, p. 203; cf. 200–05). This same pun is in Zechariah, in both the Greek and the Hebrew. And in Philo’s imagination it meant “rise up” to be God’s own Son and High Priest, his primary agent of creation. And indeed the Zechariah passage mentions the Anatolê building “God’s house,” and identifies only one person there as a high priest and “Son of the Righteous God,” Jesus ben Jehozedak. It’s improbable Philo just “accidentally” identified the Anatolê with God’s Son and High Priest and “didn’t notice” the God’s Son and High Priest in that verse is named Jesus. And then given what all the experts I cited above said about the interpretation of this verse in Philo’s day, as most likely indeed calling Jesus there the Anatolê, there is no case left to deny it. Kipp never mentions this. He has no pertinent rebuttal.
Which gets us to that verbal argument. That early Christians could have seen an allusion to resurrection through the cognate sense of “rising” / “springing forth” is supported by Philo himself (Confusion of Tongues 62–63), who repeats the pun in Zechariah when he explains why he is identifying the Anatolê with this angel, that God made his Son to “rise up” (meaning, from nowhere: he is literally the firstborn of all creation) to rule and create the universe. So Philo himself was well aware of the figurative meaning of “shoot/rising” as rising up. It would indeed be easy for a pesherist to find in this a reference to resurrection. Again, I do not, and am not here, saying they did. I am saying it would have been easy to. Hypothesis, not fact. Plausibility, not certainty. Modal argumentation. Logic. Learn it. Live it.
And Kipp Davis Is a Liar
Alas, not everything can be excused as gross incompetence. As a parting shot, Kipp falsely claims I cite sources that don’t relate to what I claim. I don’t. Which is why he gives no actual examples. Instead, he lies. Since he couldn’t find a real example, he had to invent one. And he’s so lazy, I guess, that one is all he could be bothered with inventing, apparently. Evidently, again, Kipp fails at logic by not understanding that a generalization requires more than one example. And that “example”? Davis goes on about his claim that I cited “Martin Abegg” as supporting a dying-messiah reading of 11Q13. I do not. Nowhere in the entirety of my book do I cite Abegg for such a claim. Kipp is lying.
I cite Abegg only twice in OHJ, and both times only at the end of long footnotes—so Kipp had to dig past dozens of other citations to find any reference I made to Abegg, demonstrating how desperate he was to find something to complain about. What claims do I actually cite Abegg for? In the midst of note 36 on page 76 I say “for the scroll’s text, translation and notes, see…” and I list a bunch of standard discussions of the scroll and its reference to Daniel, representing a wide range of debate. Which is what a scholar is supposed to do. Then at the end of that long string of studies I add “see also” and then I cite Abegg—and a debate between Guglielmo and Bock, making clear this appendix contains examples of debate over the material. At no point do I say these citations relate to the dying messiah interpretation. They only establish exactly what I said: “for the scroll’s text, translation and notes,” on which “see also.” That’s it. I provide a bibliography on the basics of the scroll, and the debates surrounding it. Like a scholar is supposed to do. Yet Kipp complains—by lying about what Abegg is doing in this list.
I also outright say, in the body of the text, that “Not all scholars have recognized” what I argue regarding “11Q13 or conceded it,” so where do you think the scholars I thus mention are cited? Three guesses. So here Davis is falsely accusing me of not mentioning or citing scholars who disagree with me, when in fact I do both; and in the most audacious move, Davis then falsely claims I cited Abegg for the opposite reason. Which I didn’t. Think about this. Seriously. I am being simultaneously attacked as incompetent because “You didn’t mention any scholars who disagree with you” and “You cited a scholar who disagreed with you.” In a section where I explicitly say there are scholars who disagree with me. I just cannot chalk this up to massive (truly, gobsmackingly, massive) incompetence. Davis had to consciously bypass all the other relevant sources in this note, and consciously ignore that I mentioned there are scholars who disagree with me, simply to cherry pick one of those, and then dishonestly accuse me of not knowing what he said. It’s thus clear Davis had to know he did this. Which is lying. And he told this lie to falsely accuse me of professional incompetence. Which is slander. Both of which are immoral.
I cite Abegg only one other time, in note 34 on pp. 75–76, at the end of a long list of studies discussing the “two messiah” question at Qumran. And there I cite Abegg for exactly the point Kipp makes, demonstrating Kipp isn’t even reading my notes. In the middle of that note I pivot to a qualification: “But it’s debated whether these are actually two messiahs, or what kind of messiahs they are: see …” And I list some discussions. Then I pivot to another qualification (and this is still all just in the footnote, mind you; none of this is in the main text): “It’s also debated whether one of the Qumran fragments [i.e. 4Q285] says one of these messiahs ‘will be pierced’ and killed, or whether he will pierce and kill someone else, and I consider that question presently unresolvable (the manuscript is too damaged to tell). See …” and then I list some studies on that point, at the end of which I close with “as well as the discussion and scholarship cited in Martin Abegg.”
In other words, I cite Abegg here for the discussion of this question about 4Q285, not for any specific position (that I take or anyone does); indeed I outright say I take no position for me to be citing him for! And yet in his third video, Davis lies about this, too: across minutes 35 and 36 Davis claims I am incompetent for citing Abegg because he “challenges” the claim that 4Q285 describes a dying messiah—when in fact I cited Abegg for indeed challenging that claim, thereby explaining why I didn’t adopt it! So Davis accuses me of being incompetent for doing the very thing Davis insists would be competent: correctly citing Abegg against the use of 4Q285 as evidence for a dying messiah! Seriously. Davis really did that.
So in both cases regarding Abegg, Kipp Davis fabricated a claim that doesn’t exist in my book. And then he used that single fabrication as “evidence” I “generally” cite things that don’t relate to what I cite them for (when in fact I cited them for the very things he says I should have). That’s slander. And you still trust this guy?
That Davis couldn’t find a real example further proves he’s lying—because it means he found none to cite, and thus he had no examples on which to base his generalization. That he could then only be bothered to invent one proves he’s either lazy or sucks at logic. But what really is the kicker here is that to get to Abegg, he had to waltz right past my first two references regarding reading Daniel 9:25 in 11Q13 (which Davis doesn’t even dispute): Alex Jassen (who provides general background) and John Bergsma—who argues exactly what I do in the rest of the paragraph: that 11Q13’s reference to Daniel 9:25 entails a recognition of a dying messiah concept (look up “Bergsma” in yesterday’s article; yep, that). Davis also engages equivocation fallacies here (forgetting my definition of “messiah” and why it is relevant, as I discussed the first time). But it’s most telling that he didn’t tell you my “incompetent” argument is John Bergsma’s. Who is not incompetent.
You can interpret this last lie in two possible ways. Either Davis acted like a responsible scholar and actually checked my references (rather than ignoring all of them until he could cherry pick a side-reference to Abegg for his overall lie), in which case he knew I was merely summarizing Bergsma’s argument and deliberately concealed this information from his viewers (a lie of omission), and then lied to them by claiming no one I cited supported my argument (a lie of commission). Or Davis didn’t check these sources, and thus didn’t know he was attacking Bergsma and calling him incompetent (as well as many other scholars besides; over thirty support my Element 5 overall, and several support specifically my proposal regarding 11Q13, per yesterday’s article), which would mean he both lied to his viewers by claiming he checked my sources (so as to know they didn’t support me as he averred) and incompetently didn’t check any of these sources!
Either way, Davis has established himself now to be profoundly unreliable. He has repeatedly betrayed both fundamental rules of scholarship I outlined above, confirming he has chosen instead to be a pseudoscholar. It is clear now that you cannot trust him to tell the truth about me, my arguments, the evidence, or the peer reviewed literature of our field. I suggest you stop listening to him altogether. Find someone trustworthy to patronize instead.
Conclusion
So here we are. With respect to Zechariah, Davis incompetently ignores all the arguments and scholarship against him, and then accuses me of being incompetent for maintaining a position that in fact he is incompetent for rejecting, given that that position is mainstream across the literature, and well argued. Once again, he didn’t check. Oops. His other slanderous side-points, constructed out of lies and misrepresentations, only confirm how unreliable he actually is. In every case, he never addresses my actual arguments, but invents arguments I didn’t make and rebuts them instead. But it’s his “not checking the scholarship” that gets him into the most catastrophic trouble.
For example, Kipp Davis’s survey of possible readings of a Dead Sea Scroll on Daniel, 4Q246 (relating to a mere two sentences in my Element 7 on p. 86) is irrelevant to what I argued for it: all I said is that there is one possible way to read this that could have influenced Christianity. I did not say we knew this to be the case. It’s a modal argument, not an argument to fact. But I already took Davis to task before for his ineptitude with logic. So instead, once again, I will let another far more qualified scholar speak to Kipp here: his own dissertation advisor, George Brooke, who makes the very same argument regarding 4Q246 that I do, in “Aramaic Traditions from the Qumran Caves, and the Palestinian Sources for Part of Luke’s Special Material,” Vision, Narrative, and Wisdom in the Aramaic Texts from Qumran, eds. Mette Bundvad and Kasper Siegesmund (Brill, 2017), pp. 203–20 (vide pp. 206–09).
As Judge Dredd said to Ma-Ma, “Yeah.”
Well done Mr Carrier! But why bother with someone such as him? To defend I guess but it gives him more publicity for something such as that! I understand you felt you had to do this and you made your case very well! Kiddos none the less!
Oh, it’s not just him. His disinformation campaign has been infecting too many people. So it needed to be shut down with the truth.
But even besides that, with all this decisive take-down evidence, these three articles accomplish three important goals:
(1) They thoroughly destroy Kipp Davis’s reliability, exposing him as a fraud. So he will forever be kept in check now by people able to cite this series anytime someone tries recommending him or trusting him. In effect, I just Snopes’ed him. And it’s a permanent part of the internet debunking record now. It will do its work. Disinformation must have consequences, lest we all be consumed by it.
(2) They operate as useful extended footnotes or appendices to “challenged” or “doubted” or “questioned” claims in the field that should no longer be. Davis did not invent all these false ideas. Some are “urban legends” like so many others that have infected scholars’ minds, especially in Biblical Studies which is rife with false beliefs repeated as if unquestionable.
This is why so many articles and studies had to be written debunking these myths and methods (and thus why I could call up such long prestigious lists of scholars making my point). Now here that material is made more accessible, summarized, and organized for my readers, and anyone the world over who looks for information on these questions. This is, essentially, what many of my Patrons fund me for.
(3) Each of these articles has afforded an excellent ancillary opportunity to teach critical thinking skills. This has been my trend interest the last five years or so: to not just debunk apologetics and false claims, but to use those occasions to explicitly analyze the methods by which they are asserted and maintained, and contrast them with the methods of real scholarship that should replace them—and to teach this by example to as many people as want to learn it.
Think of it as Defense Against the Dark Arts. Class is in session.
There is an interesting paper by Gregory R. Lanier (cited below) that covers the use of ὰνατολἑ for the Hebrew צמח (“Branch/Shoot”) in the Septuagint. It discusses the fact that some commentaries actually think the translators of the Septuagint mistranslated צמח by using ὰνατολἑ. It has an analysis of usage of both words, including Philo’s usage of ὰνατολἑ, including his discussion of the Zechariah passage. It might be worth adding as citation in OHJ.
Lanier, Gregory R. “The Curious Case of צמח and Ἀνατολή: An Inquiry into Septuagint Translation Patterns.” Journal of Biblical Literature, vol. 134, no. 3 (2015), pp. 505–27. JSTOR. Accessed 1 Sept. 2023.
Wow. Great thanks for that. I have long had JPASS so these are accessible to me. I wasn’t looking for grammatical analyses so this didn’t get on my radar. It’s a good find. I’m not surprised by any of Lanier’s findings but I love having it all thoroughly organized and researched like this.
I especially like the last sentence of course, his ultimate conclusion:
Combine this with all the scholarship establishing that in Philo’s day this would typically be understood (and as Philo evinces in his case, almost certainly was understood) as referring to Jesus, and we have “Jesus Rising.” Just as I hypothesized.
The first half of p. 524 of Lanier’s articles discusses Philo’s several uses of [versions of] ἀνατολή in ‘De confusione linguarum’ 60–67 (though Lanier’s mentions of Shinar seems unnecessary).
Indeed, but he doesn’t discuss its attachment (or not) to Jesus or anything else pertaining to our disputes. His survey is helpful in general but unremarkable in what it conveys about Philo.
The commentaries that “the translators of the Septuagint mistranslated צמח by using ὰνατολἑ” are likely to misrepresent what happened.
Note from the opening paragraph:
“the root צמח…became essentially a technical term for the messiah at Qumran and in rabbinic literature.”
And from the conclusion (before the excerpt Richard cited):
“we have demonstrated that both word groups, when used in metaphorical statements, are employed* to portray emergence or rising in a variety of target domains, including wisdom/reason, righteousness/wickedness, redemptive actions, and, of course, messiah figures. I conclude, therefore, that linguistically ἀνατολή is a valid choice by the LXX translators in Jer 23:5, Zech 3:8, and Zech 6:12.”
as a summary, ‘came to be employed,’ would be more realistic.
Can you rephrase your point, Craig? I cannot discern what you mean to say here.
My point is the use of ‘anatole’ is unlikely to have been a mistranslation: ie. it’s likely to reflect, for want of a better term, theological evolution, a different conceptualization of pericopes like Zech 6:11-13, perhaps in conjunction with transliteration.
nb. Lanier noted:
“The Syriac of Zech 3:8 and 6:12 reads dnḥ (“sunrise,” “shining”), which may reflect the dual use of the root ṣmḥ in Syriac described above, but calling it a “mistranslation” in light of the above analysis is perhaps too strong” (p.526).
And check out Justin Martyr’s citation of Zech 6:12 (and Numbers 24:17,* which has Ἀνατελεῖ) in the last section of ‘Dialogue cum Trypho’ chapter 106:
“Καὶ ὅτι ὡς ἄστρον ἔμελλεν ἀνατέλλειν αὐτὸς διὰ τοῦ γένους τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ, Μωϋσῆς παρεδήλωσεν οὕτως εἰπών· Ἀνατελεῖ ἄστρον ἐξ Ἰακὼβ, καὶ ἡγούμενος ἐξ Ἰσραήλ. Καὶ ἄλλη δὲ γραφή φησιν· Ιδοὺ ἀνὴρ, ἀνατολὴ ὄνομα αὐτῷ. Ἀνατείλαντος οὖν καὶ ἐν οὐρανῷ ἅμα τῷ γεννηθῆναι αὐτὸν ἀστέρος, ὡς γέγραπται ἐν τοῖς ἀπομνημονεύμασι τῶν ἀποστόλων αὐτοῦ, οἱ ἀπὸ Ἀῤῥαβίας μάγοι ἐκ τούτου ἐπιγνόντες παρεγένοντο, καί προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ.”
“And that He should arise like a star from the seed of Abraham, Moses showed beforehand when he thus said, ‘A star shall arise from Jacob, and a leader from Israel;’ and another Scripture says, ‘Behold a man; the Anatole is His name.’ Accordingly, when a star rose in heaven at the time of His birth, as is recorded in the memoirs of His apostles, the Magi from Arabia, recognising the sign by this, came and worshipped Him.”
Lanier’s article refers to Numbers 24.17 several times, often in conjunction with Zech 6:12.
Oh, yes. Thank you. That’s my conclusion as well.
But I don’t think Davis disagrees. He doesn’t see it as a mistranslation but a narrower-valenced choice of translation. Which is not how experts think about translations generally. All translations are interpretations. Insofar as they introduce new valences, that is often by choice not accident. And even when it is by accident (when the translator means to borrow only a narrow overlapping valence), the translator’s intent becomes moot as later interpreters interpret their intent differently than they had in mind (exactly as Philo does). You’ll find all these kinds of hypotheses across all the modern commentary literature on the Scriptures.
As to connections between Numbers and Zechariah, they are very diverse (probably even within Christianity already; certainly across Judaism). Philo, for example, regards them as referring to opposing entities, not the same entity. In Confusion of Tongues 62–63 he says the Zechariah Anatolê refers to God’s superson (the ultimate angel); then in the very next paragraph (64–65) he says the Numbers Anatolê refers to his enemy, some sort of dualist archvillain (possibly Satan; Philo is unclear, but it appears to be something comparable).
And so on.
re anatole/ ἀνατολὴ not being a mistranslation, I was addressing Jason’s proposition that it was (not Kipp Davis’s).
As well as noting the use of ἀνατολὴ (and Ἀνατελεῖ) in Dialogue with Trypho, note ἀνατολὴ in the LXX version of Ezekiel 43:2:
δόξα θεοῦ Ισραηλ ἤρχετο κατὰ τὴν ὁδὸν τῆς πύλης τῆς βλεπούσης πρὸς ἀνατολάς
‘glory of the god of Israel came according to the way with/at the Rising’
Regards.
Got it. I appreciate the followup.
I am quite dissapointed with Dr Davis, especially since I have enjoyed his content so far (the DSC series in particular). I also looked forward to a scholarly debate when I first heard about his upcoming videos. However, this is simply bad scholarship. For one, he should have presented his opponents arguments honestly, before presenting his rebuttal and show why the literature either agrees with him oder why he thinks it is misleading.
“Some scholars think X, but here is why I (and others) are not convinced”
None of that has been done! Instead, we get some slandering off-hand comments and the admission that he is too lazy to read the arguments or check up on citations.
More importantly, he failed to demonstrate the maybe most crucial trait of a scholar: Adjust your worldview if you find out that you were wrong. We all have biases, and even the best scholars fail prey to them or their decade-old wrong preconceptions. This is fine. This is expected. But you gotta be able to change your mind as a scholar, even if it hurts.
I am not sure what he could do at this point to save his reputation. However, the first and foremost step should be to (i) read up on the scholarship, (ii) present your opponent’s argument correctly (maybe with a grudging apology) and then (iii) admit where he was wrong. He is probably too invested in his narrative by now to do that, but hey — nobody forced him to commit to three videos on the subject before doing his due dilligance.
I concur.
And indeed, had he just done a “deep dive” on these sections, noting for example (what I couldn’t for page count) the underlying questions and complexities of some of these issues, and then where he falls in the debate and why, that would have been an excellent series and I’d probably even have no disagreement.
Likewise if his only criticism was over wording or other technicalia.
For example, on 4Q246, he could (a) acknowledge my suggestion is indeed possible (it’s not just in Brooke, his own advisor, but in Collins, the source I got it from, cited above in note 50, and others); (b) then emphasize there are other possibilities (e.g. the debate summarized in Brooke); (c) and chastise me for just not being “clear enough” (like, I could have put a footnote here to Collins making that clearer; I could have added yet more qualifying language here than I do, as I do so many other places). That would all be true enough. And I’d have no objections to it (I’ve already included these in future revision notes).
Instead he tried framing this into slander (that what I say about 4Q246 is incompetent—which it’s not: it’s exactly what Collins and Brooke say, and they are more competent than even Kipp here) and consequently didn’t educate his audience (he never admitted the debate exists, i.e. that my possibility is indeed in the mix and not something I made up, he never discussed its content, e.g. why Brooke and Collins agree with me and not him, he never even said where he falls in the debate and why, e.g. why does he disagree with his own adviser Brooke?).
Likewise with 11Q13, dying messiah traditions generally, and Zechariah 6:12: rather than inform his viewers of the actual state of these questions in the peer-reviewed literature (which backs my positions; I am indeed just summarizing them), he lied about them (or about his having actually checked them), and told them the opposite of what is true, and told this lie simply to maintain his slanderous framing.
Why he went off book into a reputation-killing death-spiral of lies, obfuscation, and disinformation simply because it’s “Richard Carrier” I don’t know. But that’s what he did. And he’ll be living with the consequences the rest of his life.
IMO, this does not bode well for the Mythvision academy course series. How is the new-to-the-question person to distinguish between course offerings when both you and Kipp have (presumably) equal endorsements/qualifications in order to be offered together?
I realize that his course has nothing to do with you or your courses, but now, knowing his academic proclivities, do you endorse Derek keeping his courses on the platform?
Off topic: Do you plan to “attend” Dr. Ehrman’s two-day online seminar on Sept. 23-24? I’ve already signed up. The Q&As could be fun.
I haven’t reviewed Davis’s courses. So I can’t say whether they contain any disinformation. He isn’t disqualified from teaching basic things about his field so I wouldn’t even expect any there. Unless someone finds lies or serious errors in it, I don’t see any reason to pull it or even not to take it as a student.
This behavior seems, so far as I know, only directed at me. He threw all his professional ethics and skills out the window to try and slander me. This seems personal. Though I have no idea what beef he has with me as to cause it.
That does cast doubt on his YouTube show, though, as that is the channel he chose to engage in this disinformation campaign, which does mean he cannot be trusted not to do this again there, once he picks someone else to slander or some other idea to disinform his audience about, for whatever personal reasons.
Likewise, that he didn’t do any research here (which is the mistake that hung him) means he might not be doing research for any of his other episodes; so you may need to view them critically if you do view him at all, knowing he probably didn’t check any literature other than any he mentions, and that he allows emotional bias to color how he reads scholars (he seems caught in prestige logic, and thus assesses a scholar’s arguments based on that sholar’s perceived social status rather than the evidence and logic they present).
His course, by contrast, I assume just summarizes basic facts conveyed in any graduate school on the subject. There isn’t any reason to expect him to lie about that or get it wrong. So unless someone produces evidence he did, I see no reason to discount it as unreliable or not worth taking.
Why do you suppose the author of Matthew, who grasps out many out of context scriptures to prove Jesus, ignored the most dead on verse, namely the king-priest joshua?
Matthew only piecemeals his citations anyway, so we can’t tell why he leaves out obvious ones (e.g. he cites the “desolating” in Daniel 9 but not the atonement or dying messiah in Daniel 9) and includes obscure ones (e.g. he says Jesus was foretold in scripture to be a Nazarene, i.e. a Nazorian, a passage that no longer even survives in our extant collection of scriptures).
He clearly wasn’t interested in citing everything. He only occasionally cites anything. Most of what he does (like Mark) is just build stories out of the scriptures without citing them (e.g. he uses material, sometimes words sometimes ideas, from Psalm 22 in the crucifixion narrative but never cites the Psalm or even says he is getting this from scripture). And Jesus the crowned king Messiah building God’s house, the dying messiah, the crucifixion passage in Zechariah 12 (while John did), most of Isaiah 52-53, all clearly get used without mention or citation.
So we cannot know why he made these choices.
I must confess, I had doubts that someone like Kipp Davis would embark on an angry and personal ‘gotcha’ campaign.
But after visiting his Twitter page, everything suddenly makes sense. He appears to be ensnared in a obsessive Carrier-hating feedback loop fuelled by individuals like Tim O’Neill, Chris Hansen, etc. He’s doing this for the internet points.
In your recent conversation with Godless Engineer, you concede (around 1h50) that your assertion in OHJ that “an ‘exoteric’ reading of Zechariah 3 and 6 would conclude the author originally meant […] granting him supreme supernatural power over the universe” isn’t necessarily the case, and that this could be referring to e.g. earthly authority over the temple (IMO the more likely intended meaning). (I notice most translations have this as ‘having charge over his courts’, while some even (IMO dubiously) refer to ‘courtyards’ or ‘porches’.)
Of course Davis would have us believe this renders worthless your entire discussion of these texts… Kipp’s gonna Kipp, I guess.
But is this something you would reword in a second edition of OHJ?
That’s a good idea. I do think it’s less probable in light of the received wording: “If you will walk in obedience to me and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here” meaning the heavenly court. It isn’t saying he will rule Israel’s courts, for example, but run God’s house and courts. He will be given some sort of supernatural status. But what exactly that meant can be argued. So I will put that in my next edition rewording, to include both meanings. Since it is only the esoteric meaning that would be relevant to my Element.
“Davis repeatedly mistook it as arguing against the historicity of Jesus” What “it” do you mean? The antecedent I see in your sentence seems to be your chapter 5. Did Davis think your Chapter 5 was arguing against the historicity of Jesus? That would be weird. I thought I heard Davis say more than once that he wasn’t commenting on “myth theory”, so I assumed he wasn’t commenting on any historicity theory either.
“my chapter four on pertinent background knowledge”
Davis has never even gotten to chapter 5 so far as I know; but yes, he has acted, especially in social media engagement, as if chapter 4 was arguing for mythicism. He reveals this in his second video, when he thinks I use Wisdom of Solomon to argue for “a cosmic messiah,” e.g. see my discussion and in comments.
And yes, Davis denies this. But he keeps saying things that reveal it. I think his denials are post hoc face-saving and not honest narratives of what he was thinking when he produced these three videos (which I think he produced all at once and dropped piecemeal, to his doom, rather than revising them after criticism already revealed the mistakes he was making).
I haven’t read your book, but I looked at some of your articles and I watched some of the recent videos, and I was wondering if you mention Jeremiah 23:5-6 and Jeremiah 33:15-16 that talk about the shoot or branch who will be a descendant of King David? If you discuss Zechariah 6 about the sprout, wouldn’t it be good to mention that this man will be a descendant of King David based on these quotes?
I just noticed you do mention Jeremiah 23:5-6 in this article. Sorry about not noticing it before.