In two weeks I’ll be speaking in Columbus, Ohio. On what you ask? Sex and Sexism in Ancient Rome: Crossroads of Sexual Freedom & State Oppression. Co-hosted by PolyColumbus and the Humanist Community of Central Ohio. This will be Tuesday, July 14 (2015), at 7pm until 9pm EDT. Location: Kafe Kerouac (2250 N High, Columbus, Ohio 43202). It will be both naughty & entertaining and illuminating & disturbing (when you realize what life was really like back then for the would-be sexually liberated). With Q&A. But probably no visuals (so the talk can be posted to the internet without incident, copyright or otherwise).
Description…
Richard Carrier, Ph.D. (ancient history, Columbia University) will discuss several aspects of open sexuality and the policing of sexuality in Ancient Rome, and their connection to the stark sexism and mild homophobia of this pre-Christian time. Sexism and homophobia in this era were less products of religion and more products of secular attitudes. Even in the face of state and social attempts to oppress sexual expression, the universality of fascinating human sexual choices still shined through.
Carrier will illustrate these points with intriguing and (at times) ribald stories about demonesses in the Talmud, priestesses with strap-ons, bisexual MMFs, and how many men the law said you had to sleep with to be legally qualified as a whore (with the attendant consequences). Yet many things, such as consensual, public, gender-equal non-monogamy, remained taboo. “When in Rome…” the saying goes, but what were the common features of what (or who) you could do while in Ancient Rome, without risking severe sanction?
Note: This talk will include explicit discussions of human sexuality and sexual thoughts and practices, given from a sex-positive, consent-focused, GLBT-inclusive perspective. Given the nature of the talk, we respectfully ask that you leave the kids at home.
Admission: Free for dues-paid members. For all others, an $8 donation following the talk is suggested to help cover my honorarium. Also, please purchase a beverage from the Kafe in appreciation for the free venue.
Please RSVP at either the HCCO Meetup page or the Facebook event page. Because if there are enough RSVPs they may consider moving the event to a larger (but substantially more expensive) venue.
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The bibliography of scholarship informing this talk (and containing most of the material referenced in it) is now available as a PDF.
The Romans were way ahead of their time and then Christianity ruined them.
Although that’s true, Rome was not utopia. In fact, on the measures of sexual liberation and ethics, they were pretty awful. So when we say the Christians made it way worse, that’s really saying something. Most of what the Romans did when it came to policing sexuality was bad, and I will be discussing that in this talk. Although I’ll also mention some of the ways it was still more liberal and accepting than the regime that followed.
How is ‘homophobia’ understood here? Is it understood as a sort of irrational fear, or is it something more typical of your grievance culture, something like ‘the expression of any idea critical of homosexual behaviour’?
I am using homophobia in its common connotation as the sexual-orientation analog to sexism. Thus, dehumanizing or denigrating or abusing people who do not conform to heteronormative sexual expectations.
I’ll discuss also the fact that in ancient Rome “homosexuality” as presently constructed didn’t exist. Homosexual desires and activities existed. But they weren’t categorized and oppressed as a unit like they are now. Some homosexual activities were okay, others were not. And the distinction was much more clearly linked to sexism than today. Homophobia today is still entirely a crypto-byproduct of sexism, it’s just less clear now, due to the way this connection is hidden; even homophobes who almost tell the truth about this are still compelled to be coy about the underlying truth of it).
On this the historian Mary Beard did an excellent talk entitled “Oh Do Shut Up Dear” which was broadcast on the BBC and is available on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86NTvddYDCA
She also did an interview with british comedian Richard Herring in which she talks about sex in Roman times (if you watch his catalogue he does a lot of funny stuff, and some of his jokes in this interview may not make sense if this is your first encounter with him):
Oh, indeed! Both good talks.
Although the first talk you link to isn’t so much about policing sexuality, but sexism in controlling women’s speech. I’ll be talking about sexuality. And more broadly than just in relation to women (although that’s a bigger part of it all).
The second link is mostly about public sexualized art, which I will briefly survey, but my talk will be focusing on actual sexual desires and behaviors, and when and how they were socially or legally policed or sanctioned.
That looks like a really awesome talk, unfortunately I will not be able to attend (I live in California). I really like that you are now doing events with polyamorous lifestyle groups. I, along with many other polyamorous people, am very appreciative of your recent efforts to promote awareness and acceptance of the poly lifestyle.
If this event it’s successful, would you be willing to do talks at some of the bigger poly lifestyle events, like Swingfest or Swingstock?
I would really like to see some atheism oriented activities at these events. Perhaps if the event organizers are receptive to the idea, you could get together some more poly atheist speakers like Miri M., Heina Dadabhoy, the Skepchicks, and PZ Myers, and have a separate atheist/skeptic room at these events. I think if you were to try to crowdfund something like this there are va lot of poly atheists who would donate. I know my partner and I would. Keep up the the, good work, and I hope I can catch you soon. My partner CJ would really like to meet you!
They’d have to ask me! You can lobby for an org to so if you are interested. My speaking requirements are here. Mogilevsky, Dadabhoy, Christina, and others could similarly be asked.
I do pursue venues from time to time, but I need to be confident I can add value. Poly societies might not see me as a draw, whereas I am a draw for more explicitly atheist and humanist groups. So a poly org needs to know there’s demand (and thus hear from folks like you).
Personally, when it comes to speaking on the modern intersection of atheism and polyamory, Mogilevsky and Dadabhoy are far more appropriate gets as speakers. I’m relatively new to the life, and though I do have a lot of knowledge, from research and reflection and by drawing on the experience-base of my girlfriends, and because I look at it all through the eyes of a philosopher, nevertheless, Mogilevsky and Dadabhoy have much more experience in discussing these issues.
Will there be a transcript? I’m deaf, so I can’t watch a video without captions or subtitles.
Do you know someone who can produce one from the video once it’s up?
I can put a call out later. But it will be easier if you can already get someone in touch with me. I can proof a transcript for anyone willing to put in the time to produce it. But since I’ll be speaking off the cuff, there won’t be an advance script, and it takes a lot of time to generate one from a recording. So it really needs some donated labor.
Anyone keen on committing to do that for people who need it, do contact me!
Sounds extremely interesting, and I’d love to read a transcript too if that comes to fruition.
I imagine this will probably dispell a lot of misconceptions about concepts of sexuality at the (many and different???) times of the Roman Empire (my extremely limited understanding is basically that you’re either a real person – a male citizen actively sticking his dick into his inferiors – or you’re nothing and nobody: a woman, a slave (sex irrelevant) or a non-citizen/inferior rank man having a dick stuck into them, to put it crudely (apologies if that’s not ok on your blog, btw, please delete if so)).
Somewhat off-topic, but I couldn’t find this elsewhere . If you saw the the not-particularly-good TV series “Spartacus’ , the sex scenes seemed totally over- the top; I mean, this was a provincial town under the Republic with decent Roman matrons.
OTOH, to non-trained eyes the BBC’s “Rome” seemed reasonable- but then I, like most viewers, are not experts (apologies if you feel like the dinosaur guy in “Jurassic Park 3” when you get questions like this).
I didn’t see that series (and wouldn’t expect it to be accurate). But mores were more unregulated in the 70s BC than after 31 BC. For example, adultery wasn’t illegal in the 70s BC but it was by 10 AD. Things got more austere and restrictive over time (part of the inevitable consequence of moving from a semi-democracy to a de facto dictatorship). In the 70s things like adultery would still have been socially frowned on or socially punished, but people who didn’t care could live their lives at least. People got up to all kinds of things even in the Empire, though. So I probably wouldn’t say anything depicted in that show isn’t something that happened.
Does the period being covered include Catullus? Catullus V in particular is an amazingly passionate piece of work. If you can find the Wordsworth translation it’s almost an improvement on the original. What is so wonderfully striking about it is to realise that the desires, and the means of justifying and satiating them – of humans have remained pretty much unchanged over millennia. The poem might have been written yesterday. It really is that fresh. Ovid’s work can also be pretty racy, and his lyrical treatment of the female form also remains fresh.
I’ll draw a little on the poets, but mostly just as references, and possibly not always name them (my bibliography will point to the leading scholarship, which will have all the references).
“I am using homophobia in its common connotation as the sexual-orientation analog to sexism. Thus, dehumanizing or denigrating or abusing people who do not conform to heteronormative sexual expectations.”
But this still doesn’t tell me what homophobia is. People have different conceptions of what sexism is; and so your statement here is not all too illuminating. Remember that part of the criticism faced by the politically correct crowd is that their conceptions of racism, sexism and homophobia are too broad. I’m not here saying that you’re part of that crowd, but only noting that there seems to be different understandings of these concepts within the public. It’d be nice to see someone identify what they meant in a clear way.
Carrier tells Some Dude what homophobia is.
Some Dude responds that he didn’t tell him what homophobia is.
Yep. That just happened.
No, sorry, I don’t know anyone who’s got the time to do that.
By the way, this connects with something I’ve always wanted to ask you about. Conservatives are always whining that our loosening sexual morals are going to bring about our downfall just like what happened with Rome. It’d be really cool if you could do a post on claims like this.
Hi,
I will be willing to produce a transcript.
Regards,
Jacob
Thanks! I’ll email you when the video goes up.
Let me tell you something brother, that conversation that you stArted on Ophelia Benspn’s blog about the ethics of pornography and certain sexual fetishes was awesome. It is too bad that a few closed minded prudes like Mr. “Spokesgay” had to complain and get the conversation shut down. Do you think you would be able to continue that fascinating discussion after your Columbus talk? I’ll be there with my partner, perhaps we can have a tag team event afterwards. I’m looking forward to the talk. See you on Columbus, brother!
I don’t know if you are trolling. But a discussion of the effects of modern porn on human sexuality would not be on topic for a discussion of ancient sexuality and the role sexism played in policing and judging it. There might be tangential connections that come up, but not much as would pertain to the discussion you are talking about.
Only rather distantly related: Is there an ETA for your book(s) on science in the early Roman empire? I’ve been interested since I read your essay “Christianity Was Not Responsible for Modern Science.”
Ideally early next year. With electronic and audio versions later that year. I’ll announce on my blog when they become available. Science Education in the Early Roman Empire will release first. Then The Scientist in the Early Roman Empire.
Update: The bibliography of scholarship informing this talk (and containing most of the material referenced in it) is now available as a PDF.