Raphael Lataster and I will be on the Mythicist Milwaukee Show next week to talk about many things to do with the mythology of Jesus, including my upcoming debate with Justin Bass in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, the following week (that debate will be this March 19th, and it’s already selling out; details here). We will also discuss Lataster’s recent book, Jesus Did Not Exist, which I recently reviewed.
Tune in this Saturday, March 12th, at 10am PST (a departure from their usual Sunday afternoon slot, since Lataster will be joining us from Australia). Details here. Live feed airs here. It will be archived at their site as well.
We are excited for the interview and the debate!
Good luck with the debate Dr. Carrier. I think you’ll do awesome. You’re the best.
In fact, we don’t even need the mythicist hypothesis to call into question the historicity of the death of Jesus. A crucified messiah was clearly a “stumbling block” for most Jews (see 1 Cor 1:23), but at least some Jews, like Paul, believed Jesus’ atoning death, burial, and resurrection fulfilled Jewish scripture (see 1 Cor 15: 3-4). The scriptures Paul is referring to here are probably Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, and following Matthew 12:40, the account of the relation of the death and resurrection of Jesus to the story of Jonas and the big fish. In his new book, “Jesus Before The Gospels,” Bart Ehrman writes that memories of Jesus’ death “do not appear to be remembered in any prejudicial way – for example, because they represent episodes of Jesus’ life that Christians particularly would have wanted to say happened for their own, later benefit (Jesus Before The Gospels, pg. 148).” Ehrman is trying to rescue the historicity of the crucifixion, but this seems to fly in the face of Paul’s claim that Jesus’ atoning death is grounded in scripture. Recall Paul said “Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES (1 Corinthians 15:3).” In any case, following accepted hermeneutic protocol, since the account of the passion, burial, and resurrection of Christ serves a theological function as scripture fulfillment for the original Christians, there is no reason to think there is any historical core to any of these three reported events, since the original Christians would have had reasons to invent them. Paul Clearly says that “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES (1 Cor 15:3-4) So, the crucifixion does not meet the criterion of embarrassment. Just as the writers of the Hebrew scriptures may have invented a story about Moses receiving the ten commandments from God on top of the mountain so that their laws would appear to have impressive authority, so too might the original Christians have invented stories about Jesus’ divinity because they wanted to lend authority to Jesus’ ethical message. Clearly, in the ancient world, people were willing to lay down their lives in support of an ethical cause (e.g., Socrates). That’s not to say we have reason to think the passion/burial/resurrection narratives were “noble lies,” just that the criterion of embarrassment can’t be used here to rescue an historical core. Consequently, we don’t even need the mythicist hypothesis to call into question the historicity of the crucifixion, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
On the other hand, if we take your mythicist interpretation that 1 Cor 15:3-4 means Paul DISCOVERED the crucifixion, burial, and resurrection of Jesus through an allegorical reading of Hebrew scriptures, this still destroys the historicity claims about Jesus’ death.
Kick his ass Richard. lmao
(1). Robert M. Price is interesting He writes:
The Crucifixion (Mark 15:21-41):
The substructure for the crucifixion in chapter 15 is, as all recognize, Psalm 22, from which derive all the major details, including the implicit piercing of hands and feet (Mark 24//Psalm 22:16b), the dividing of his garments and casting lots for them (Mark 15:24//Psalm 22:18), the “wagging heads” of the mockers (Mark 15:20//Psalm 22:7), and of course the cry of dereliction, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34//Psalm 22:1). Matthew adds another quote, “He trusts in God. Let God deliver him now if he desires him” (Matthew 27:43//Psalm 22:8), as well as a strong allusion (“for he said, ‘I am the son of God’” 27:43b) to Wisdom of Solomon 2:12-20, which underlies the whole story anyway (Miller), “Let us lie in wait for the righteous man because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law and accuses us of sins against our training. He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord. He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; the very sight of him is a burden to us because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life: for if the righteous man is God’s son he will help him and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. Let us test him with insult and torture that we may find out how gentle he is and make trial of his forbearance. Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.” As for other details, Crossan points out that the darkness at noon comes from Amos 8:9, while the vinegar and gall come from Psalm 69:21. It is remarkable that Mark does anything but call attention to the scriptural basis for the crucifixion account. There is nothing said of scripture being fulfilled here. It is all simply presented as the events of Jesus’ execution. It is we who must ferret out the real sources of the story. This is quite different, e.g., in John, where explicit scripture citations are given, e.g., for Jesus’ legs not being broken to hasten his death (John 19:36), either Exodus 12:10, Numbers 9:12, or Psalm 34:19-20 (Crossan,).
(2) Paul said “Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES (1 Corinthians 15:3).” So the question is what scriptures are Paul Referring to? As I said above in section (1) above, many details of the crucifixion seem to be derived from Psalm 22. In fact, the crucifixion itself may be derived from the implicit piercing of hands and feet in Psalm 22:16b (Mark 24). Psalm 22:16 says “Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me;they pierce my hands and my feet.”The Septuagint , a Jewish translation of the Hebrew Bible into Koine Greek made before the Common Era, and which the New Testament writers use, has ωρυξαν χειράς μου και πόδας (“they have dug my hands and feet”), which some commentators argue could be understood in the general sense as “pierced”. The proper way to render the phrase remains disputed, but given the extensive parallels between Psalm 22 and the crucifixion, which I outlined, I have no problem with rendering it as “pierced.”
(3) So there really isn’t any reason to think Jesus was crucified. Maybe all the stuff about Pilate and the like was just good historical fiction, like the stuff about the Census of Quirinius relating to Jesus.
I would like to see you debate Ehrman. I agree with Ehrman who makes the point that Paul met Jesus’ brother. I think Bart Ehrman would emphasize Jesus’ humanity over his divinity. For instance, Jesus’ cry of dereliction from the cross quoting Psalm 22 does not portray Jesus as a divine being calmly expecting resurrection. Also, the prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane shows Jesus in despair, disagreeing with God’s plan and petitioning against his being a part of it, clearly showing Jesus is not one and the same with God. Finally, Jesus identifies with humanity in the way he constructs The Lord’s Prayer. Things like this, along with passages that identify Jesus as a failed apocalyptic prophet, are probably the things Ehrman suggests the next wave of atheists should be focusing on (and not things like The Christ Myth Theory). Ehrman would probably contend that Jesus is clearly not depicted as a god or The God, but rather as a human prophet (Mark 6:5) with human failings, such as drinking too much alcohol (Matthew 11:19), and even disagreeing with God’s plan and his role in God’s plan (Mark 14:32-42)
Ehrman has repeatedly said he will never debate me. Because I am “too mean.” Because I used words like “sucks” to describe one of his books once.
But just FYI, “Jesus’ cry of dereliction from the cross quoting Psalm 22 does not portray Jesus as a divine being calmly expecting resurrection,” it portrays him as a stock righteous hero in a venerable Jewish fiction tradition. (As even mainstream experts agree. See Proving History, pp. 131-34 and 141; and OHJ, pp. 430-33.)
The Christians of Paul’s and Mark’s time did not believe Jesus was identical to God. He was an archangel adopted by and assigned the authority of God. As such he had to willingly suffer total humiliation and abandonment in order for his death to atone for sin.
That explains all the mythical tales constructed. It doesn’t require any actual events.